Why are Great Scientists, Engineers and Merchants still on the same counter?
- Thread starter Alzadar
- Start date
CountAccountant
Warlord
What if the power of the Great Merchant were just vastly increased so that it was comparable to a Great Scientist or Engineer? I don't think I would mind a Great Merchant if it permanently gave my civ an additional trade route, or maybe a bonus delegate with the World Council.
Not hard to get anywhere from 3-5 GMs in the late game from my puppeted cities when I have full GPP buff bonus.
I don't think we want to scale the GM's power as it now directly affects Venice. Whatever a standard GM gets, the MoV needs to do better or it unbalances Venice.
Only thing I can think of that would be ok ish is slightly more gold/influence per GM
Mercade
the Counsellor
Clearly the free great people from policies or wonders shouldn't increase the counter. Same way as a free policy doesn't increase the policy counter, etc.
Teaf
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2013
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- 108
I don't mind, in fact I like the GS and GE's are shared. What I hate though is the GM's are thrown in there too, especially with puppets who spawn them. I also do agree that spawned Great People from wonders, social policies and any unique abilities shouldn't increase the counter.
Whan think which may help is seriously increasing the gain from this mission.
I just try to imagine what kind of benefit would be on pair with wonder rush.
And i think it would be being able to instabuy 2 top normal buildings (and 4 with full commerce),and securing with CS for ages. Like 2 librares from liberty finisher and 2 universitets from Piza. I admit never tested it right, but influence should scale as well with eras. 30 influence early on is big deal, but end game 80influence is like "another 1000 gold, whatever".
The other thing is that brining city states generaly sucks, and there should be some timer 5/10/20 turns of how often you could bribe.
I just try to imagine what kind of benefit would be on pair with wonder rush.
And i think it would be being able to instabuy 2 top normal buildings (and 4 with full commerce),and securing with CS for ages. Like 2 librares from liberty finisher and 2 universitets from Piza. I admit never tested it right, but influence should scale as well with eras. 30 influence early on is big deal, but end game 80influence is like "another 1000 gold, whatever".
The other thing is that brining city states generaly sucks, and there should be some timer 5/10/20 turns of how often you could bribe.
lockstep
Prince
I couldn't have said it better.
Gabriel Pyyrhic
Warlord
Firaxis doesn't understand fun ?
Honestly that is one of the most egregiously ignorant statements I have ever seen posted.
Making an argument for a change to the GPP counters is fine IMO, but arrogantly couching it in condescension is reaching for the heights of stupidity.
Think about what your saying ... The design team behind the Civ series and XCOM do not understand how to engender enjoyment through engaging gameplay.
EscapedGoat
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
- Messages
- 204
Oh please, get off your high horse. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Since my opinion interests you so much I'll expand on it:
I think the modern Xcom is a very average game and lets face it, Civ5 is a mess of a game compared to Civ2, Civ4, SMAC etc which are literally some of the best games ever. The fact of the matter is that Firaxis does not consist of the PEOPLE who made those classics anymore.
Civ5 is a mess of systems that have changed countless times since vanilla, and the fact that prophets, artists, writers, musicians, generals and admirals are on their separate counters while merchants, scientists and engineers are still jumbled together seems more like a lazy legacy from vanilla to me than a truly Thoughtfull reworking of the system. I think it doesn't make any sense and I personally think it's not a fun mechanic.
BeakersGoMeep
Chieftain
We seem to be forgetting (was it sweden or norway?)'s UA, +90 influence for gifting a great person. Now with GWAM on their individual points these great people could be spammed for that purpose if tourism isn't your thing and there is extra population.
Great merchants essentially do the same thing but give a bunch of gold and half the influence. And if they had their own point scale they could be spammed for this UA (though I don't see the point of it, i'd rather get the gold and inf) whereas keeping GSEM tied prevents this for that country's UA preserving balance.
Now the question is, do we want to keep great merchants from happening in favor of scientist and engineers or let merchants occur constantly without any notable penalty grounding them. Many of you say that GM happen often anyways without control so maybe we should accept them as something seperate, like a mini GP with reduced effect for trade missions (and great houses are weak enough on their own). Or keep them tied and improve great house. Or make drastic changes.
If I had to suggest a drastic change it would be to untie GS GE and GM, and make the cost for a specific GP increase significantly in the city it was produced in and less significantly in the civ. So if GM costs 100 for first in cap and is spawned the next would be 175 in cap and 125 in other cities, promoting a reason to go wide since there isn't much of one any more(cough sci and culture reductions cough).
Great merchants essentially do the same thing but give a bunch of gold and half the influence. And if they had their own point scale they could be spammed for this UA (though I don't see the point of it, i'd rather get the gold and inf) whereas keeping GSEM tied prevents this for that country's UA preserving balance.
Now the question is, do we want to keep great merchants from happening in favor of scientist and engineers or let merchants occur constantly without any notable penalty grounding them. Many of you say that GM happen often anyways without control so maybe we should accept them as something seperate, like a mini GP with reduced effect for trade missions (and great houses are weak enough on their own). Or keep them tied and improve great house. Or make drastic changes.
If I had to suggest a drastic change it would be to untie GS GE and GM, and make the cost for a specific GP increase significantly in the city it was produced in and less significantly in the civ. So if GM costs 100 for first in cap and is spawned the next would be 175 in cap and 125 in other cities, promoting a reason to go wide since there isn't much of one any more(cough sci and culture reductions cough).
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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- Apr 3, 2004
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- 12,418
You could also increase gold from the customs house (to 6 probably) that would make GMs worth pursuing.
CountAccountant
Warlord
I admit I forgot about this. It's also very strong case for not putting Great Merchants on a separate counter; Venice's rate of city acquisition would increase pretty substantially.
BeakersGoMeep
Chieftain
Actually, if the UA binds all great people together, perhaps the increase in points needed to spawn a GP should be tied for all of them but much more lightly. (not sure how to balance this increase for gen and admiral)
And if we're just counting great people in general, then any spawn other than a UA should count to increase the cost. but i do think that free great people from wonders should do so at half the normal amount.
And if we're just counting great people in general, then any spawn other than a UA should count to increase the cost. but i do think that free great people from wonders should do so at half the normal amount.
CountAccountant
Warlord
My mistake, I missed that the first time around. Thanks for clarifying.
I wouldn't mind having all 3 on different counter. Engineer bulbing power could be nerfed by half or so, so that planting him would be actually worthwhile (right now it's +4 hammers I believe? Only 2 extra over standard improvement) and maybe even make rushing of 'normal' building not a waste, you should get up to two building with rush + leftover hammers on next turn.
OT, but I wish GS bulb power got locked when they are created similar to GA/GM. Hoarding them through (sometimes) ages seems really silly.
OT, but I wish GS bulb power got locked when they are created similar to GA/GM. Hoarding them through (sometimes) ages seems really silly.
I'd like to see the Great Merchant get two trade missions, and bump the customs house gold by 2.
In general though, the gest buff for the GM would be to make gaining influence with city-states more challenging than it currently is (i.e. it needs to involve more than writing checks).
In general though, the gest buff for the GM would be to make gaining influence with city-states more challenging than it currently is (i.e. it needs to involve more than writing checks).
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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- Jun 10, 2013
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GM should definitely be on a separate counter and custom house could use a buff for sure.
GE/GS also could be, but those two would definitely need GPP requirement increase in that case. Maybe an increase in tech costs too, because everyone would be full of GS then. GE could use a buff to Manufactory (it's bad compared to Almost Guaranteed wonder) but nerf to production from ability.
And yeah, I'd love if "free" Great People actually were free.
GE/GS also could be, but those two would definitely need GPP requirement increase in that case. Maybe an increase in tech costs too, because everyone would be full of GS then. GE could use a buff to Manufactory (it's bad compared to Almost Guaranteed wonder) but nerf to production from ability.
And yeah, I'd love if "free" Great People actually were free.
Vidszhite
Ya Girl Juniper & Friends
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2012
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- 370
The "free" GP used to be free, but it was discovered to be overpowered, since you can target them, so they increase the counter now.
I'd prefer if they just balanced out the numbers a bit. Science will always be king, but I am more referring to the plant vs. one-time use issue. If you could put down a customs house or manufactory and get a decent pay-back, I'd be more tempted to use them.
I mean comparing a measly +4 GPT to a late-game GS bulb is just laughable. Even on separate timers I'm not sure I'd even bother wasting working the specialist slot for that.
I mean comparing a measly +4 GPT to a late-game GS bulb is just laughable. Even on separate timers I'm not sure I'd even bother wasting working the specialist slot for that.
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