Why Bureaucracy?

[McThomas]

Hi Civ fanatics...

I just want a couple of good reasons to adobt this useless thing! i hate Bureaucracy.

is + 50% and + 50% in capital (only) really worth high upkeep ? ?

Cheers Go Nationhood!

Nikolaj McThomas

 

[babybluepants]

I just want a couple of good reasons to adobt this useless thing!

How about...

+ 50% and + 50%

 

[TheLazyHase]

You can hate a civics hat is one of the most powerful of the game. I guess hating it a little less would make you a better player.

 

[McThomas]

You can hate a civics hat is one of the most powerful of the game. I guess hating it a little less would make you a better player.

I'm using an Decentralized and Organized system, which means: i have a lot of citys with a medium commerce or hammer count...

There is no need to centralize around the capital and lose a lot of money on upkeep, because, when you have a lot of citys, you pay an untold amount of upkeep, witch leads to Inflation too!

(i play at Noble)

 

[Mantic0re]

The relatively higher upkeep is usually very small when it is acquired. I suppose at a higher difficulty or later game date the cost may become prohibitive. I assume higher level players make civic choices not based on cost, but on the benefits and plan they have. If your Rushing to war then Nationhood (with Globe Theater) may be preferable to extra hammers and commerce in one (usually well developed) city.

The benefit may not sound like much but when you start stacking +% modifiers it gets very nice. If you plan it right a simple switch can show an immediate improvement in your overall tech rate.

The question for me is, "Do I switch now, or delay anarchy and wait for xxx"

And then I don't usually see a compelling reason to switch away from Bureaucracy and hurt my top commerce or hammer city. Maybe if I enjoyed war more I'd have a higher opinion of the other options.

 

[KeloGBites]

..Hating Bureaucracy due to High Upkeep? Seriously? Courthouses negate that High Upkeep to near nothingness. Vassalage has it's place as well, if you need that +2xp for CRIII or some other key promotion, but in most cases Bureau is the much better choice since it can literally SKY rocket your science rate when you have a cottaged capitol, not to mention the Production boost is very helpful since it can transform a relatively bad production capitol into something at least passable for building infrastructure etc.

Nationhood has it's place, and that place is with Muskets and Rifles. Nationhood with several cities that can grow back 1 pop per turn is borderline broken, especially when one of those has a GT in it. But even then, you still need some regular production cities to build the Cannons/Trebs for support. The espionage boost is usually something thats well, there, but really doesn't effect my strategy (I'm impartial to the 'Espionage Economy) although you could use Spies instead of Trebs to knock down defenses with it, the +2 happy to Barracks is quite nice to combat the..rather high amount of unhappiness Drafting gives.

Economically the only contender with Bureau is Free Speech, and that requires A LOT of well-developed cottages to become > Bureau, and usually needs Universal Suffrage as well to equal out the hammer boost from Bureau.

 

[TheLazyHase]

I'm using an Decentralized and Organized system, which means: i have a lot of citys with a medium commerce or hammer count...

There is no need to centralize around the capital and lose a lot of money on upkeep, because, when you have a lot of citys, you pay an untold amount of upkeep, witch leads to Inflation too!

(i play at Noble)

You can be bad. Still, Bureaucracy is most often awesome; because your capitale is your best city, and the upkeep is not a big problem. When your empire became world-wide it stop being a good idea, but it's most likely only in industrial area.

I would add that inflation has nothing to do with bureaucracy.

 

[Grey Fox]

This is one of the most powerful civics in the game. Get it early, get Oxford in your capital. Have lots of towns in capital. = Research Power!

Eventually it will be beaten by Free Speech, or even Nationhood in rare occasions.

 

[bestsss]

>>Courthouses negate that High Upkeep {of bureaucracy} to near nothingness.
Actually that's damn false. The courthouses do not touch the upkeep at all. Organized trait does.

>>Economically the only contender with Bureau is Free Speech
If you switch to spy economy (which can be way more powerful than the standard research in terms or return of investment [commerce]) nationalism is rock solid even w/o using the draft button. +2happy is a very decent bonus as well.

Bureaucracy is seriously hot by the time it comes. For relatively small empires it's the best civic, it's weird but I like the extra hammers more since it allows very good production and wonder races.

 

[vicawoo]

..Hating Bureaucracy due to High Upkeep? Seriously? Courthouses negate that High Upkeep to near nothingness. Vassalage has it's place as well, if you need that +2xp for CRIII or some other key promotion, but in most cases Bureau is the much better choice since it can literally SKY rocket your science rate when you have a cottaged capitol, not to mention the Production boost is very helpful since it can transform a relatively bad production capitol into something at least passable for building infrastructure etc.

Nationhood has it's place, and that place is with Muskets and Rifles. Nationhood with several cities that can grow back 1 pop per turn is borderline broken, especially when one of those has a GT in it. But even then, you still need some regular production cities to build the Cannons/Trebs for support. The espionage boost is usually something thats well, there, but really doesn't effect my strategy (I'm impartial to the 'Espionage Economy) although you could use Spies instead of Trebs to knock down defenses with it, the +2 happy to Barracks is quite nice to combat the..rather high amount of unhappiness Drafting gives.

Economically the only contender with Bureau is Free Speech, and that requires A LOT of well-developed cottages to become > Bureau, and usually needs Universal Suffrage as well to equal out the hammer boost from Bureau.

Courthouses affect city maintenance, which is separate from civic maintenance.

The power of bureaucracy capitals is your capital is often much stronger than other cities,
for expensive buildings like wonders more cities don't help as much as one super city,
and finally and often most importantly it multiplies commerce, not science, so you multiply your bonuses, particularly academies.
For example, if you have 50 commerce and an academy, you get 75 beakers. If you have bureaucracy and an academy, you make 75 commerce and then 112.5 beakers.

 

[TheLazyHase]

It's true that 1 or 2 settled GE in a bureaucracy capitol can make silly things. Why drafting when you can build them the regular way about as fast ?

 

[KeloGBites]

Hmm really? Huh guess you learn something new each day.
bestsss: Really? Wouldn't you need some of the later espionage buildings (Intelligence Agency, Security Bureaus, Jails) to have enough EP to consistently steal the later techs?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

>>Economically the only contender with Bureau is Free Speech
If you switch to spy economy (which can be way more powerful than the standard research in terms or return of investment [commerce]) nationalism is rock solid even w/o using the draft button. +2happy is a very decent bonus as well.

Once you start getting over a certain # of cities, nationhood starts winning. This is especially true if you go workshop or farm heavy, as nationhood not only axes some civic maintenance but can also counteract emancipation somewhat...but the cost variation between high and no upkeep is not insignificant on its own. If you're talking 12-15+ cities, bureaucracy doesn't necessarily win on an economic basis, even if we ignore the EP.

 

[McThomas]

wow, thanks guys...

my conclusion... using burgerki... eh... Charlemagne with Bureaucracy... adding Rathaus and landsknecht spam is a bloody good idear?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

wow, thanks guys...

my conclusion... using burgerki... eh... Charlemagne with Bureaucracy... adding Rathaus and landsknecht spam is a bloody good idear?

Sometimes. Sometimes you'd rather have powered cottages en masse' or about 40 drafted protective rifles to help...make that UB REALLY shine.

 

[bestsss]

bestsss: Really? Wouldn't you need some of the later espionage buildings (Intelligence Agency, Security Bureaus, Jails) to have enough EP to consistently steal the later techs?

Jails are one tech past the nationalism, right? They are not expensive to whip either.
You get castles which are a good thing to have and you can ignore economics. ->100% EP modifiers plus passive EP (courthouse/jail). Get proper discount bonuses: found religion (perhaps Tao), move the capital, give away a city (w/ religion and culture influence of yours), etc. Espionage is quite different from teching on your own but it can be real powerhouse. A plus: you have extra spy protection (vs everyone) due to espionage spending.

Since espionage takes less commerce it's much easier to concentrate on production. Drafting is far from everything that nationhood offers.

 

[Artichoker]

Unless you're like me, and spend many hours trying to make Vassalage a viable civic, Bureaucracy will be your only option from the time it is unlocked until the time Nationhood and Free Speech are unlocked, in the large majority of games.

Nationhood is a good default civic to use, once it is unlocked, because it doesn't require you to tailor your economy in any specific way. Bureaucracy and Free Speech get stronger the more you tailor your economy to these civics.

Bureaucracy is sometimes preferred over Free Speech in the Industrial and Modern eras when you want the combined effect of production and commerce bonuses. Free Speech gives you commerce, and this will surpass Bureaucracy for large empires. But sometimes the extra production of Bureaucracy tips the scales in its favor.

 

[UWHabs]

It all depends on the games. Sometimes, bureau is amazing, especially since the +50% commerce is applied to the base value. So if your cap used to get 40 commerce, now it's 60, which then gets put through libraries and markets and oxford and whatever.

Plus, the hammers are not insignificant. Early-ish game, usually I only have 1 production city plus the cap getting any real hammers to put into units.

That being said, early game, bureaucracy works because your capital is most of your empire. Once you're at 10-12 or more cities, it can take a back seat. If you've cottaged everywhere, I've gotten some pretty amazing boosts empire-wide switching to free speech. Or if I am gearing for war, vassalage or nationhood aren't bad civics either.

Of course, with all that, it's a very rare game that I'm not in bureaucracy for at least a small bit of the game. Even better if you're organized the upkeep doesn't hurt so bad.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Jails are one tech past the nationalism, right? They are not expensive to whip either.
You get castles which are a good thing to have and you can ignore economics. ->100% EP modifiers plus passive EP (courthouse/jail). Get proper discount bonuses: found religion (perhaps Tao), move the capital, give away a city (w/ religion and culture influence of yours), etc. Espionage is quite different from teching on your own but it can be real powerhouse. A plus: you have extra spy protection (vs everyone) due to espionage spending.

Since espionage takes less commerce it's much easier to concentrate on production. Drafting is far from everything that nationhood offers.

Just to further this to people who are unaware: this can get you as low as 80% reduction in EP cost, such that a stolen tech costs you 20% of its EP cost. That's a little ridiculous, but 60-70% isn't, and that's still a very high return. This goes very well with state property + workshop + move palace to catch an empire up, since moving the palace won't hurt you at all, and you can hammer out the EP buildings for a good EP base even BEFORE you crank the slider, allowing you to overwhelm a smaller empire in EP.

IMO EP is a tech catchup mechanic for bigger empires.

 

[obsolete]

(i play at Noble)

Thanks for this wonderful and exciting tip, but I suspect most the responders to this thread could have already guessed.

Good luck.