Why did God create atheists?

[OrpheusPrime]

wow, this is still going on? you guys are a trip

Truly, I had thought this one was cashed. Time to pack the pipe again guys.

 

[Ayatollah So]

Frankly, I am tired of hearing this argument. Satan did not blind the minds of the translators who wrote the Bible, because God preserves His word, and Satan is no match for God. From John 16:12-15, Jesus speaking:
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

You underestimate the Spirit of God, and overestimate Satan. A Christian has this very Spirit residing in him/her, guiding him/her into truth.

I don't estimate Satan or God at all - I just draw logical consequences from what others say about them.

It's all good and well to say that a Christian has the Spirit residing in him/her, but how then can any non-Christian tell who is a true Christian and who is not? For surely, you will admit that throughout history there have been some who have falsely professed the faith? And if there have, then how do I know which translations of the Bible are truly divinely inspired? - given that I don't know who among the people who did such work was a true Christian and who was merely saying they were, perhaps in order to avoid being burned at the stake.

Your response fails to address the larger point, that once I contemplate the possibility that Satan (or anyone else) is playing Jedi mind-tricks on me, it becomes awfully hard to know anything at all. Any reasoning I do automatically becomes suspect. It's a bit of a sticky wicket, don't you think?

One more related topic. If Satan created atheists (or rather, created the conditions which made atheism seem to some people to be reasonable), does that mean God won't blame the atheists for their condition? After all, people aren't to blame for what someone else inflicts on them - are they?

 

[Sickman]

For same reason he created all the other heretics.

So in cold night in a cabin we can think warm thoughts of them while lying in front of the fireplace (aka the stake).

And thanks Curt for the Nietzschist joke, laughed my ass off.
Which reminds me how I'm supposed to sit in this chair without an ass while being an ass?

 

[Lozzy_Ozzy]

Sometimes God doubts himself- he created man in his image (apparently).

BTW I don't support Christianity.

My beliefs are my own.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

No, that doesn't defend your position. People who believe in "no sex outside of marriage" are still very much at risk of STDs.

Absolute horsecrap. You're so full of crap that even though there may have been one or two things worth replying to in the rest of your post, I'm not even going to bother. If you can't desist from such bald-faced lies as this, it's a waste of my time to put forth any effort at all with you.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

This is where your argument breaks down FL2. You have equated marriage with those people responsible enough to commit to a monogamous relationship. While there is some overlap, these are not equivlent groups - never have been. In my case I committed to a monogamous relationship about five years before I got married, and I only got married at that point because it meant free health care for my significant other. <snip> You see, this is just insulting. Obviously there are legal benefits to marriage in the US, that is why I got legaly married, but I never needed a pastor of any sort to legitimize my love or make me behave a certain way. Here you are equating people who do not get married (which I assume you are taking as a religious ceremony) with people of low moral character or otherwise unable to form intimate bonds with members of the opposite sex. Please piss off.

All of which supports my assertion that marriage means less now than it used to, because of the assault on marriage and family by the forces of evil. If you're going to do my arguing for me, I'll just retire from the thread.

There is some risk involved with any sexual contact, actually the risk of being hurt emotionally is probably the biggest one for any quality person. But life is full of risk, I chose to perform many dangerous actions (scuba diving and hard core inorganic synthesis to name a couple) knowing full well the risks involved.

And if you do hurt or kill yourself doing these things, do you expect other people to suffer for it? You indicate that you have a wife. If you die, what becomes of her? Do you have life insurance? Or is she supposed to throw herself into your grave as you are lowered into it so she can serve you in the afterlife? Does the term 'irresponsible schmuck' ring any bells? When you risk your life, you do so knowing that others could pay the penalty for your actions, and that makes you a bad person. Don't like it? Too bad, the truth hurts, doesn't it?

This has nothing to do with atheism, as you point out, because an athiest is just as capable (perhaps moreso, but that's another debate) as a religious person of entering into an intimate, life long, monogomous relationship. Judge a man by his actions.

Your actions don't speak very well of you, do they?

 

[mdwh]

Absolute horsecrap. You're so full of crap that even though there may have been one or two things worth replying to in the rest of your post, I'm not even going to bother. If you can't desist from such bald-faced lies as this, it's a waste of my time to put forth any effort at all with you.

Wow, there's an intelligent argument. Do you honestly believe that you are immune from STDs so long as someone's come along and married you? Wow.

If you can't be bothered putting forth any effort, then it would be better for all of us if you really didn't "waste your time" making a post at all, rather than just trolling this discussion with abusive comments.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

You didn't say 'immune' the first time liar. You said 'very much at risk'. The two are as different from each other as night and day, liar.

Stop lying, liar, and I'll stop calling you a liar, and that you're full of crap.

 

[Masquerouge]

All of which supports my assertion that marriage means less now than it used to, because of the assault on marriage and family by the forces of evil.

Wow you just made my day. The forces of evil indeed.

Yeah, marriage meant so much more back in those days where you had to stay with the husband that beat you every night because you could not divorce him !
Well, I guess since you did not choose your mate in the first place, it meant even more then !

But unfortunately the forces of evil now are trying to make you marry someone you love instead of dooming yourself to a lifebond.

I'm actually quite glad that my fellow atheists came up with a civil marriage. Because even if I currently love my wife more than anything in the world, who am I to say it will stay like this forever ?

 

[Lord Parkin]

Stop lying, liar, and I'll stop calling you a liar, and that you're full of crap.

Very constructive.

Please people, this could be an interesting discussion, but when you degenerate to flaming each other I (and others, I'm sure) just turn right off. I've been following this discussion with some interest for a while, but if it continues this way much longer I don't think I'll bother.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: mdwh & FearlessLeader2 - warned for flaming.
Lord Parkin - report it, don't stir it up.

Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Wow you just made my day. The forces of evil indeed.

Just because you're a moral relativist doesn't mean Good and Evil don't exist. It just means you've chosen to ignore them. Say hi to the ostrich while you're down there.

Yeah, marriage meant so much more back in those days where you had to stay with the husband that beat you every night because you could not divorce him !

And thanks, BTW, for not resorting to hyperbole at the first opportunity. That kind of thing always lowers the quality of the discussion. It's good to know someone else is insterested in keeping the discussion on course.

Well, I guess since you did not choose your mate in the first place, it meant even more then !

You know, the husband had duties to his wife as well. Not mistreating her was one of them. There are Evil people too, you know.

But unfortunately the forces of evil now are trying to make you marry someone you love instead of dooming yourself to a lifebond.

(and he accuses ME of excess )
You know, even back when there WERE arranged marriages in our culture, they weren't exactly common. You might want to stick with statistically significant data.

I'm actually quite glad that my fellow atheists came up with a civil marriage. Because even if I currently love my wife more than anything in the world, who am I to say it will stay like this forever ?

Yeah, she might get old and fat, or badly injured in an accident and turned ugly, and if you were stuck with her because of some stupid notion of commitment or honoring your word, why, that would be an imposition on your absolute and undeniable right to instant self-gratification, right?

 

[Quasar1011]

It's all good and well to say that a Christian has the Spirit residing in him/her, but how then can any non-Christian tell who is a true Christian and who is not? For surely, you will admit that throughout history there have been some who have falsely professed the faith?

Why sure. Good question, by the way. Even today, some falsely profess the faith. As far as telling who is a Christian, and who is not, most people have a problem with that. They believe that we are not to judge. But, the Bible tells us not necessarily to judge a person, but to inspect their works. In Matthew 12:33, Jesus taught us,

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit."

Now, if a band of crusaders in the year 1200 is professing Christianity, heading to the Holy Land to liberate it; yet rapes, pillages and plunders along the way; that would be bad fruit, no? True Christians act like Christ- they don't act any way they want in the name of Christ.

Your response fails to address the larger point, that once I contemplate the possibility that Satan (or anyone else) is playing Jedi mind-tricks on me, it becomes awfully hard to know anything at all. Any reasoning I do automatically becomes suspect. It's a bit of a sticky wicket, don't you think?

Human reasoning is suspect, even without Satan.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

The battlefield for Earth, between God and Satan, is the human mind. So you are spot on recognizing the danger in letting Satan influence a person's mind. However, God gives us ways to counter this:

Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Job 1:9-10
"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?"

James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

One more related topic. If Satan created atheists (or rather, created the conditions which made atheism seem to some people to be reasonable), does that mean God won't blame the atheists for their condition? After all, people aren't to blame for what someone else inflicts on them - are they?

This really goes to the core of Christianity. The trouble is not only that people sin; the deeper trouble is that people have inherited a sin nature from their parents, going back all the way to Adam. This is what Jesus came to fix.

You cannot excuse sin by saying, "the devil made me do it." The devil will be bound for 1,000 years in the future. This will be to show mankind that his real problem is not his sin-infested environment (which Satan has a great deal of responsibility in enhancing), but his sin-infested heart. People will still sin during that time period. The trouble lies in exercising one's free will, in opposition to God's will. Atheists and believers alike are accountable to God, for all of their choices. Are we responsible for what we have inherited from our parents? The obvious answer is yes. The good news is that God loved us enough to fix the problem.

 

[shortguy]

The trouble lies in exercising one's free will, in opposition to God's will.

Daniel 4:35:
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: 'What have you done?'"

Does God allow events to occur that he has not willed?

Are we responsible for what we have inherited from our parents? The obvious answer is yes.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[CurtSibling]

I am always amused when christians produce these bible quotes, as if we are all meant to step back in abject amazement.

None of it is evidence, and none of it is impressive...Is it all they have to argue with?

Probably, people who are discouraged to think tend not to innovate much.


.

 

[Ayatollah So]

Are we responsible for what we have inherited from our parents? The obvious answer is yes.

You mean like genetics, for example? I'm with Shortguy on this one. To me, the obvious answer is no.

 

[ironduck]

I think this concept of being responsible for what 'we have inherited', that dates back to Adam and Eve, is supposed to mean the 'original sin'. Which is precisely what I described earlier as one of the most vile and nasty inventions people have made to control others with.

 

[mdwh]

You didn't say 'immune' the first time liar. You said 'very much at risk'. The two are as different from each other as night and day, liar.

So you do agree with me after all that you're still at risk of STDs if you're married. "Having multiple sexual partners" (as you original talked about as being at risk from STDs) is something which can be true or not independent of whether the people believe in "no sex outside of marriage".

Marriage has nothing to do with this. You can be monogamous to just one person ever, without being married. You can have multiple partners in your life, whilst being married to every one of them.

Stop lying, liar, and I'll stop calling you a liar, and that you're full of crap.

Please try to conduct an intelligent debate, and take your name-calling elsewhere.
Moderator Action: Please learn to heed moderator warnings and not to respond to posts like these.

 

[Stylesjl]

God created aethists for fun- if there is a god

 

[FearlessLeader2]

A couple of things--

First, I haven't called anyone 'names'. I did point out that someone was lying, and made it absolutely clear who and how.

Second, certain rabid anti-Christians need to wrap their tiny minds around the concept that quoting from the Bible to explain Christian tenets is a right and valid thing to do, just as quoting from a technical manual to explain the operation of a piece of machinery is.

Third, the marriage discussion needs its own thread, and I'll go start one.

Moderator Action: Not the way to respond when just being warned for such posts
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889