Originally posted by ArmOrAttAk
The countries that would have you dead for disenting political views: U.S.S.R maybe you need a refresher course in the ways Lenin and the gang handled this, Also: China- Tianamin Sq. will be my example.
The former USSR and China are both totalitarian. Neither practiced communism, though both 'claimed' to be communist.
As far as these professors at MIT, and Cambodian protestors: I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Maybe you need a refresher course in both American history and current affairs.
Assuming Chinamen have all the personal freedoms that I enjoy, where to live, work is wrong? Maybe you're thinking this is a Honk Kong thread, it isn't. People are willing to risk their lives and their families lives to sneak out of that country.
I have never even suggested that a Chinaman has the same freedoms as an American. The desire to leave China has more to do with economic circumstances and surviving in a totalitarian state.
I can go live and work in GB if I want, without my govt. holding my family hostage and taking steps to prevent my leaving.
I have no doubt the US has no problem with your departure.
I have concerns that the UK may not welcome your arrival.
China has no problem with the departure of its citizens.
The US has a problem with the arrival of 'illegal' Chinese immigrants. Maybe the US could permit 'legal' immigration of these poor people so they no longer have to risk their lives?
About this 1 child policy -being able to have more? I've never heard of this, I could be wrong but until I see evidence to the contrary I'll go on believing it's 1.
I have seen it with my own eyes. When I asked, the explanation was simply, "We can afford to have children, so we are permited."
It makes sense to me. Why bankrupt the state when a family can not afford to feed its own children?
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
This is what Democracy stands for.
I have never read this definition anywhere. I could be wrong but until I see evidence to the contrary I won't believe it.
All I've ever seen Communists do is take away these basic human rights. I see you quoted most of my post but you missed one partHEY I make enough to buy bread, and some vodka--And my son will too!!--) what a wonderful existense.
It was not missed. Many in the pretend to be 'communist' countries are also economically wealthy, and their sons will be as well. It is just that a 'smaller' percentage of them enjoy a 'greater' percentage of the country's wealth. In a manner of speaking, they are more capitalistic than we are.
For all of you who think communism is great: I invite you to go live where it's in place.
As suggested earlier. There is no such thing as a communist state in the world we live in. They are totalitarian states, claiming to be communist and have adopted the communist lingo. This is an impossible invitation to execute. One can not find a communist state in the world today.
Great thing you can go, we don't build walls around here to keep the people in.
The problem has more to do with immigration than emmigration.
You're just big hipocrites praising communism from your democratic abode. GO LIVE THERE I'm sure the communists govts. of the world will accept you with open arms.
I am not a hypocrite. I have a unique perspective.
No, it's better the way I said it.
Communism in practice is nothing like the theory.
In theory it works for the whole populace building a better place. In practice it supresses the populace nothing more.
You are describing a totalitarian state claiming to exercise communist ideology.
The cold war is suppose to be over.
WE should stop criticizing communism.
THEY should stop claiming to be communist.
Why do people find Communism so threatening?
- Thread starter Sabotage
- Start date
I guess I need a refresher course, too. I have studied American History, and followed current affairs for all of my adult life (I'm 47 yrs old), and I cannot recall either of these two instances.
Please post a link to a reputable source.
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
Well I believe pure democracy is cabable, so were gonna have to agree to disagree
As for communism, well i'm not a purerist, so there's not much point me commenting.
As I have said many times before, communism is far to broader a word, it is used to describe far too many different idealogies/different groups.
For example:
My own views are vastly different to one of a Stalinist yet we would both get called communist.
Crimson Sunrise
Slaying tanks on turn 104
All the arguments appear to be that "Mao and Stalin committed atrocities, but they are not real communists, therefore communism is not bad". The fact remains that communism is a failed ideology. It ruined Cambodia, North Korea, and the Soviet Union. It caused the deaths of thousands in the shadows between East and West Germany.
How do you claim that the Soviet Union was not a communist countries? By their own government's admission, they operated a communist planned economy.
How do you claim that the Soviet Union was not a communist countries? By their own government's admission, they operated a communist planned economy.
ArmOrAttAk
Warlord
Hi, here I am again.
muppet: The former Soviet Union, and China were/are communist. Just because you disagree with their interpretation of it doesn't make it untrue. I can't begin to fathom the benefit of claiming your government system is "a" when it's in fact "b". Thus I draw my conclusion communism in practice, etc. People don't like it so the government decides to supress them.
I would also like to see some lit on the MIT/Cambodians mentioned. I though my last post gave the impression of asking.
You did suggest chinamen have the same freedoms if they work hard, etc.
Please don't concern yourself with my being wanted in UK, but do tell why you think my arrival would be unwelcome.
China has no problems with departure of it's citizens. Pure nonsense: statements like this makes me wonder what propaganda you suscribe to.
Who did you ask about the one child policy? What is the income level needed to make 2?
Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is from the american declaration of independence.
"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." -Thomas Jefferson
Too bad mr. Jefferson isn't here to debate with you, he was much more eloquent than me.
On to next point. The wall I was referring to was Berlin wall, not the great wall of china. The problem was more so emmigration. There you go again making false claims.
There you have it, feel free to disect it line by line. Just don't doublepost it to page 5
muppet: The former Soviet Union, and China were/are communist. Just because you disagree with their interpretation of it doesn't make it untrue. I can't begin to fathom the benefit of claiming your government system is "a" when it's in fact "b". Thus I draw my conclusion communism in practice, etc. People don't like it so the government decides to supress them.
I would also like to see some lit on the MIT/Cambodians mentioned. I though my last post gave the impression of asking.
You did suggest chinamen have the same freedoms if they work hard, etc.
Please don't concern yourself with my being wanted in UK, but do tell why you think my arrival would be unwelcome.
China has no problems with departure of it's citizens. Pure nonsense: statements like this makes me wonder what propaganda you suscribe to.
Who did you ask about the one child policy? What is the income level needed to make 2?
Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is from the american declaration of independence.
"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." -Thomas Jefferson
Too bad mr. Jefferson isn't here to debate with you, he was much more eloquent than me.
On to next point. The wall I was referring to was Berlin wall, not the great wall of china. The problem was more so emmigration. There you go again making false claims.
There you have it, feel free to disect it line by line. Just don't doublepost it to page 5
http://www.techreview.com/articles/taubes0402.asp?p=1
A five page article in techreview concerning:
(a) MIT Professor Theodore Postol
(b) Nira Schwartz
(c) Patriot Missiles
(d) National Missile Defence
(e) Abnormal behavior of TRW
(e) Government 'classification' of public information to prevent public debate.
http://www.csulb.edu/~d49er/Issue29/29okent.html
Just a site I found that lists a student protest in Ohio that resulted in the National Guard killing some rock throwing students. I am sure you can find old newspaper and film material on this event at a major library.
Padma, don't misunderstand me. I do not mean that the so called communists are better than us. I only mean that we are not saints either. Between the two, I would never give up my democratic rights.
klazlo
Avatarless Sociologist
After reading this thread I think maybe we should divide the debate between
1. communism as a particular ideology
and
2. communism as it is/was practiced by different states.
I guess that the threatening feeling comes from the second one. What the western media presented as "Communism" that was really threatening not just because of the actual problems (I grew up in Hungary so I have some experience) but because of the western government/media coverage bias also. But I find it weird that after the collapse of the Soviet Block this seems still a "threat" for some guys, when only a couple of so-called "Communist" states remained (but most of them are quite isolated as Cuba or North Korea).
Before someone would say
, what's about China?, I think China is a special case, an interesting mixture of Communism and Capitalism.
1. communism as a particular ideology
and
2. communism as it is/was practiced by different states.
I guess that the threatening feeling comes from the second one. What the western media presented as "Communism" that was really threatening not just because of the actual problems (I grew up in Hungary so I have some experience) but because of the western government/media coverage bias also. But I find it weird that after the collapse of the Soviet Block this seems still a "threat" for some guys, when only a couple of so-called "Communist" states remained (but most of them are quite isolated as Cuba or North Korea).
Before someone would say
, what's about China?, I think China is a special case, an interesting mixture of Communism and Capitalism.Hi, here I am again.
muppet: The former Soviet Union, and China were/are communist. Just because you disagree with their interpretation of it doesn't make it untrue. I can't begin to fathom the benefit of claiming your government system is "a" when it's in fact "b"...
They were/are tyrannies and/or oligarchies. They advance the agenda's of the elite class by claiming their actions are done for the good of the whole based on communist principles. They manage to convince enough of the population to help supress the remainder.
I would also like to see some lit on the MIT/Cambodians mentioned. I though my last post gave the impression of asking.
See posted above. This does not mean I do not agree with the actions of the state. In a sense I think the state acted appropriately. I just believe we should be more aware of our nasty behaviors in situations of 'neccessity' (sp?).
You did suggest chinamen have the same freedoms if they work hard, etc.
You're right. Correction: What I meant is that they do have some degree of economic mobility. Though generally, I agree they have far far less freedom than we do.
Please don't concern yourself with my being wanted in UK, but do tell why you think my arrival would be unwelcome.
I don't really mean that they might not like you. Only that immigration to a '1st' world nation is not automatic. EX: I can immigrate to Japan or the US because I have a degree. The 'average' Canadian or American can not immigrate, for example, to Japan just because he/she feels like it.
China has no problems with departure of it's citizens. Pure nonsense: statements like this makes me wonder what propaganda you suscribe to.
There are probably millions of immigration applications made from China to countries like Canada and the US every year. WE accept very few of them. The bottleneck is in the receiving country.
Who did you ask about the one child policy? What is the income level needed to make 2?
I contact of mine who is a company President in China, is a Chinese citizen, and has 2 children.
Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is from the american declaration of independence.
Exactly. It is a passage from the Declaration of Independence. It is not the 'definition' of democracy.
On to next point. The wall I was referring to was Berlin wall, not the great wall of china. The problem was more so emmigration. There you go again making false claims.
OK. You're right. I was referring to the excess immigration applications from China that WE in North America are turning down. I concede that I never even thought about the Berlin Wall. I didn't even think about problems in Romania.
I tend to think of 'now'. I have a habit of forgetting about 'then'.
I refuse to accept that these countries are communist. They do not fit the definition of communist. They fit very well the definition of tyranny, totalitarian, etc. We shouldn't fear communism. We should fear tyrants!
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
Why do people find it threatening?
Simple, cause its not democratic.
Simple, cause its not democratic.
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
Thats incorrect. China attacked UN forces outside its borders, without provocation. They only did so to save the rapidly collapsing North Korean communist government from annihilation.
However, the past is the past. I for one am very happy to see our two countries drawing closer again.
America and China now share intertwined destinies in this new century.
I expect the Chinese will play the key role in reigning in the current North Korean government, and avoiding a new Korean war in the future.
Mîtiu Ioan
Deity
What part sound pretty horible ?
No - it's not a communist state - but it's somekind of "political-industrial oligarchy ruled state with bad advices from IMF" ... what is probably even worse in many aspects.
Regards
klazlo
Avatarless Sociologist
Actually most countries in Eastern Europe have the same problem. They are run by a left- or right-wing oligarchy (in Hungary for instance we change them at every electionOriginally posted by Mîtiu Ioan
No - it's not a communist state - but it's somekind of "political-industrial oligarchy ruled state with bad advices from IMF" ... what is probably even worse in many aspects.
but it doesn't get better of course). The only difference between them is that right-wing oligarcies in EE also try to force sovinist ideologies. I guess we have to wait some generations to get rid of this "elites".And on the other hand unfortunately most countries in EE have to follow the IMF "advices" since they have a lot inherited financial problems but struggle with a political pressure from the population that wants western-type lifestyle. It's really a 'catch 22' you will not be re-elected if you try to reorganize economy by raising prices. People don't care about macro-level economic achievements, because don't understand them, if they see that the price of bread is increasing: game over.
Mîtiu Ioan
Deity
In fact IMF advices are definately a non-sense in many aspects : almost anywhere applied go to disastrous results.
The problem is more "deeply" with this advices ...
Regards
klazlo
Avatarless Sociologist
Maybe the structural adjustment program of the WB/IMF in South Korea is a clear case for this, I think Bruce Cummings had a chapter about it somewhere.
I don't think I misunderstand you, I just have some problems with your arguments.
1) I thought you might be talking about Postol. But he hasn't actually been prevented from voicing his opinion on this. Yes, the government has played some silly classification games which prevent the issue from being fully and openly discussed, but he is still free to voice his opinion. Otherwise, we wouldn't even know about it.
2) I thought you meant "Cambodian Protestors", not "protestors against the actions in Cambodia". I do remember Kent State. That was a case of group of National Guard members (the same age as the protestors) being physically attacked by the protestors. Being young, and scared, some of them "broke" and fired on the protestors. A terrible event, as traumatizing to the shooters as to the victims. But it definitely was not a deliberate, planned killing of protestors.
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