Why ending a life is morally neutral

[Valka D'Ur]

morals are hardwired

Morality is relative. There have been societies in which the moral thing to do with deceased loved ones was to eat them. I can't think of any Western country in which endocannibalism is still considered moral.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

No, I'm not letting you do that. My speculation is that they carry weight in general. I have not seen you demonstrate that it doesn't contain weight in general.

Here's a question for you, what isn't morally nuetral and why isn't it?

I answered all those questions in the OP and if I have to I will do so again.
But first: You throw out a wild speculation such as that what you want has value just because it does, transcending time and place, as an object fact of life, and expect me to do all the explaining? That is mighty complacent on your part and really I should refuse to engage it.

I don't. So you [paraphssing] "won't let me do that". You won't have me naturally assume that the original source of any value of your wishes must be you? And refuse to answer for that assertion, directly? *sigh* It is like I have to write the OP all over again.

Well since I was so free to preclude random supernatural arguments - I guess that is what I will do, yes. You want to evoke those arguments? Just say so. You want to suggest something else? Plz say so because I can not even imagine it. As it is, all we know to be real are emotions. And they encapsulate the only instance value becomes real, as a consequence. Since value is essentially a fall-back to good or bad feelings. Enriched with social constructs and imaginary and all kinds of nice jazz. Plz feel free to disagree, but plz also feel compelled to explain how that even makes sense.
So with that, hopefully, established, your "values" can only carry as far in their worth as their source of worth, your emotions, persist or as those emotions relevantly touch the emotions of others who persist.
From which follows, that your "ideas" are meaningless shells as long as not nurtured with REAL emotions. As those emotions disappear, they take their value with them, and nothing is left but dust. Certainly no transcending idea of Perfection's hopes for the future which vapors through space and time or whatever.

From which follows, all things being the same: What you want becomes objectively meaningless the moment you die.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I think you're basically right, Terxpahseyton, but I believe that putting this into practice the best way to go about it is suicides rather than killing others

btw I've only really read the op and haven't paid much attention to the discussion since

 

[Berzerker]

Morality is relative. There have been societies in which the moral thing to do with deceased loved ones was to eat them. I can't think of any Western country in which endocannibalism is still considered moral.

maybe cannibalism is neither moral or immoral without further context... that wouldn't make morality relative

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I think you're basically right, Terxpahseyton, but I believe that putting this into practice the best way to go about it is suicides rather than killing others

If you think the practice was somewhat fundamentally life-hostile you are wrong. In theory it is fundamentally neutral. And practical life-friendly because people can not deal well with it.
To apply this philosophy to you, personally - if you have the ability to make your life at least bearable while giving your parents the joy of making a semi-successful life - perhaps which children - then it will be a moral plus. Killing yourself would probably be a moral minus, assuming that you could at least lead a bearable life. If you can not, which I doubt, but who knows, suicide still be a moral minus, but not necessarily and things become complicated. There is certainly no blank check.
If you could destroy all life in a micro second: You may or may not. It is morally neutral. But I would really hate you for it, if given the chance.

 

[Perfection]

I'm on my phone so sometimes I don't read as fully. There are some bits that you rightly pointed out that I missed. Upon further rereading I still think you haven't successfully argued the title though I have a better idea of your views.

So a couple things:

1. We could ascribe value to other things than emotion. For instance I value knowing the Truth. Now you may argue that it's merely my emotions about Truth but we could also argue that truth is intrinsically valuable. That could be from some lofty reason about higher purposes in life, which I'm not convinced isn't the case. Or it could be that truth is evolutionarily favored (and an argument that this this confers real value).

2. The other thing I see is that deference to emotions would suggest that ending human life isn't morally nuetral given that we generally frown upon it. It seems to me that it ought reinforve the idea that life is typically valuable

 

[Lohrenswald]

If you think the practice was somewhat fundamentally life-hostile you are wrong. It is fundamentally neutral. And practical life-friendly because people can not deal well with it.
To apply this philosophy to you, personally - if you have the ability to make your life at least bearable while giving your parents the joy of making a semi-successful life - perhaps which children - then it will be a moral plus. Killing yourself would probably be a moral minus, assuming that you could at least lead a bearable life. If you can not, which I doubt, but who knows, suicide still be a moral minus, but not necessarily and things become complicated. There is certainly no blank check.
If you could destroy all life in a micro second: You may or may not. It is morally neutral. But I would really hate you for it, if given the chance.

seems like I've misunderstood something you said then

 

[Timsup2nothin]

maybe cannibalism is neither moral or immoral without further context... that wouldn't make morality relative

This goes back to the missing definition of "morally neutral." I'm still using the idea that if the only way to assess whether an act is moral or immoral is by the context, then the act itself is morally neutral since you cant say "this act is unequivocally moral (or immoral)." That did lead to the question 'what then, if anything, is not morally neutral?' But no one has really stepped up with a definition of 'morally neutral' that works better, so...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm on my phone so sometimes I don't read as fully. There are some bits that you rightly pointed out that I missed. Upon further rereading I still think you haven't successfully argued the title though I have a better idea of your views.

So a couple things:

1. We could ascribe value to other things than emotion. For instance I value knowing the Truth. Now you may argue that it's merely my emotions about Truth but we could also argue that truth is intrinsically valuable. That could be from some lofty reason about higher purposes in life, which I'm not convinced isn't the case. Or it could be that truth is evolutionarily favored (and an argument that this this confers real value).

2. The other thing I see is that deference to emotions would suggest that ending human life isn't morally nuetral given that we generally frown upon it. It seems to me that it ought reinforve the idea that life is typically valuable

There is no truth, just agreement.

 

[caketastydelish]

If you have others that love you, care for you, or depend on you, ending your life is selfish.

 

[Perfection]

There is no truth, just agreement.

A document says a box 450+/-1mm wide. I measure it to be 449.7mm. I thus say the document is true.

Why am I wrong to say that?

 

[Perfection]

If you have others that love you, care for you, or depend on you, ending your life is selfish.

What if you feel like your continued existence will merely drag them down and that ending your life will ultimately be to their benefit?

 

[caketastydelish]

In that case 'others that love you, care for you, or depend on you' wouldn't apply?

 

[Perfection]

It should still apply. For instance I may believe that my spouse loves me but that ultimately I am bad for her and bring her suffering.

 

[caketastydelish]

In that case you'd be a ****** and better off dead.

Moderator Action: Not an appropriate response. Infracted. - Bootstoots
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Perfection]

That's a pretty harsh response, mate.

 

[BvBPL]

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved involved in Mankind.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A document says a box 450+/-1mm wide. I measure it to be 449.7mm. I thus say the document is true.

Why am I wrong to say that?

Because if you measured it with a different tape, or in different temperature conditions, the box may or may not fit the description in the document. You can agree that the standards of the document are "good enough for me for the task at hand," but there is still no truth there.

Which is not to say that you are wrong to say it because I agree that for our purposes here the standards are good enough, since I'm not overly concerned about this hypothetical box.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

seems like I've misunderstood something you said then

As I imagine a suicide in the family is a devastating experience like few other, to which I would have felt bad to have contributed, so I feel glad. But mostly, I am curious how so. If you would care to share.

SORRY I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO RESIZE IMAGES IN THE NEW SYSTEM I HATE THE NEW SYSTEM GIVE ME MY HTTP BACK ALL IS SO SEEMINGLESS AND EXPLANATIONLESS KILLMEKILLMEIDONTUNDERSTANDBUHAHA

I'm on my phone so sometimes I don't read as fully. There are some bits that you rightly pointed out that I missed. Upon further rereading I still think you haven't successfully argued the title though I have a better idea of your views.

As a whatsaper would note:
Glad about the admittance. *cowwithapartyheat* Concern about your phone. *borgwithalookingglass*

Now you may argue that it's merely my emotions about Truth

yes, I may..
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but we could also argue that truth is intrinsically valuable.

(I like the seemingless gif integration of the new system - still where is my SIZE?!)

That could be from some lofty reason about higher purposes in life, which I'm not convinced isn't the case.

AND entering religion crazy territory. Well not entirely. The idea of some "key" or some special insight into life is pretty universal. We got bookshelves full of life-advice books brimming with it. But the fundamental idea behind that idea of something fundamental is religion (if you follow me). Just that people never got to realize it (otherwise no religion)
Still, I AM telling you, Perfection! No cop-out.

Or it could be that truth is evolutionarily favored (and an argument that this this confers real value).

Well assuming that was true - which at least in some fringy way may be - I certainly don't am at odds with it.

2. The other thing I see is that deference to emotions would suggest that ending human life isn't morally nuetral given that we generally frown upon it. It seems to me that it ought reinforve the idea that life is typically valuable

Sort of. Not really. But sort of.

I appreciate your candor in the beginning. It sums it all up.
Now please endorse me so that I feel some worth. That is the thing about my philosophy. It leaves me utterly unsatisfied. I think that is a great hallmark for a sound universal philosophy.

 

[Perfection]

I dunno beauty seems like a reasonable alternative that's not overly tainted with religious woo.