Why era change is so much controversial

I just finished an Immortal game and completed the World's Bank on the same turn as the World's Fair. I probably would have been a turn or two earlier on the bank if I hadn't spent money on 2 Explorers; instead I could have just bought more railways and factories as soon as available. If I clicked the World Bank button I won, if I clicked the End turn button I won.

But yeah, I didn't notice much difference between this Culture Victory and the one I did pre-1.1.0. The AI still sent multiple explorers to the same site. The AI still moved Explorers onto sites I was already digging. AI never caught up in Culture so I did all of the Investigations which gives the player an advantage too. It was actually quicker because I got a ton of antiques from Narrative Events and 4 from Nat Wonders.

I don't know what to say. I suppose our playstyles are just that different. I get three archaeologists at the beginning of the age, use them halfway intelligently by spreading them out, add what I get from overbuilding and narrative events and I'm done in no time, and world's fair is only 3000 production on deity. Shift your best production resources to your highest production city and it's done in no time.
 
It's funny because Economic is without fail the fastest one for me. There's usually an abundance of factory resources and acquiring them is as simple as sending a merchant, which takes effect immediately. The bottleneck is resource slots and cities or towns that can get the needed infrastructure.

Maybe I just don't focus on culture much in my games so my culture output is too low, but I can win an Economic victory before even getting Hegemony.
 
It's funny because Economic is without fail the fastest one for me. There's usually an abundance of factory resources and acquiring them is as simple as sending a merchant, which takes effect immediately. The bottleneck is resource slots and cities or towns that can get the needed infrastructure.

Maybe I just don't focus on culture much in my games so my culture output is too low, but I can win an Economic victory before even getting Hegemony.

Yeah but culture output doesn't matter for culture victory really, unless I'm remembering something wrong. I'm just catching up to the ai in science and culture right before modern, and I have no problems. Economic takes the time to build up points, then [(number of civs -1) x 2)] turns to move and activate the banker. World's Fair is usually close to done by the time I get enough tycoon points, and I build factories as soon as I can. We must play very differently. Do you buy instead of build your factories or ports?
 
Yeah but culture output doesn't matter for culture victory really, unless I'm remembering something wrong. I'm just catching up to the ai in science and culture right before modern, and I have no problems. Economic takes the time to build up points, then [(number of civs -1) x 2)] turns to move and activate the banker. World's Fair is usually close to done by the time I get enough tycoon points, and I build factories as soon as I can. We must play very differently. Do you buy instead of build your factories or ports?
Hegemony is quite far down the civic tree, and getting there without high culture takes time. I get to Mass Production in the tech tree much faster.

I used to buy almost everything, but now that the costs have increased by a lot, I'd buy the buildings in maybe 2 Factory Towns and mostly hard build them in my cities (with some rushing with gold for the slower cities). I usually end up with something like 5-6 settlements with mostly factory resources slotted.
 
Good point. I just let another civ get Hegemony and unlock more artifacts while I go for other things. You only need one civ to get it for all civs to get the benefits. Usually by the time one gets it, we've wrapped up exploration artifacts but not natural wonders, which I leave for last because every civ can use them.
 
That's logical. The odd thing is the Deity AI seems to get Hegemony around the same time as I do or just a little earlier, by which point I'd have accumulated a healthy amount of Economic points. And my sense is that I don't win very quickly. My best was around turn 60, but it's gone up to between 80 to 90 post-nerf, at which point I'd have just accumulated the required number of artifacts.

Not sure what's going on in my games.
 
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Yeah but culture output doesn't matter for culture victory really, unless I'm remembering something wrong. .......
We must play very differently. Do you buy instead of build your factories or ports?
Culture output gets your to Hegemony faster. If you can be the one that's doing the Investigations then you can have your Explorers spread on the right continent and usually get the most artifacts

I buy 2 Explorers and build 2 in my best cities.

I buy ports and factories and railways in my Factory Towns and hard build them in my 3 biggest cities. Then I build/buy more as needed, whichever is faster.
 
That's logical. The odd thing is the Deity AI seems to get Hegemony around the same time as I do or just a little earlier, by which point I'd have accumulated a healthy amount of Economic points. And my sense is that I don't win very quickly. My best was around turn 60, but it's gone up to between 80 to 90 post-nerf, at which point I'd have just accumulated the required number of artifacts.

Not sure what's going on in my games.

I think we just play wildly differently, which is a great thing that there isn't just one clear path to a fast victory. I think we may be on different difficulty levels as well. AIs are generally pushing out 2500+ culture per turn in modern, letting them get Hegemony faster than I could even if I beelined it, I think.

@sixty4half I have never bothered with factory towns so this is also a big difference. I rarely have enough money to upgrade my military and buy factories, so the military comes first for me every time..
 
It's funny because Economic is without fail the fastest one for me. There's usually an abundance of factory resources and acquiring them is as simple as sending a merchant, which takes effect immediately. The bottleneck is resource slots and cities or towns that can get the needed infrastructure.

Maybe I just don't focus on culture much in my games so my culture output is too low, but I can win an Economic victory before even getting Hegemony.
Even with high culture output, the economic victory is still the fastest. It's trivial to get factories set up and filled. The AI will always allow you to trade for more resources and merchants are very cheap. Even with the cost increases, factories and rail stations are also still very cheap. The gold and influence cost for setting up the world bank is basically nothing unless everyone hates you.

I don't think that I've ever played a modern age where the banker wasn't set to sleep in the final capital while I worked on some other legacy paths or pushed for a different victory condition just to satisfy the challenges for points.

I wonder if some players here just don't focus enough on gold. I always just buy rail stations, factories, ports, and explorers. Building that stuff takes too long.
 
Even with high culture output, the economic victory is still the fastest. It's trivial to get factories set up and filled. The AI will always allow you to trade for more resources and merchants are very cheap. Even with the cost increases, factories and rail stations are also still very cheap. The gold and influence cost for setting up the world bank is basically nothing unless everyone hates you.

I don't think that I've ever played a modern age where the banker wasn't set to sleep in the final capital while I worked on some other legacy paths or pushed for a different victory condition just to satisfy the challenges for points.

I wonder if some players here just don't focus enough on gold. I always just buy rail stations, factories, ports, and explorers. Building that stuff takes too long.

And I always build because the gold is needed for military upgrades. Like you, I stop the banker in the last city, leave world's fair and op ivy on one turn, etc.

I was recently wondering though, what is the benefit of getting all the victory paths complete before you win? I always do it, but does it level up the leader or foundation level? Because forcing end turn forever is incredibly boring.
 
And I always build because the gold is needed for military upgrades. Like you, I stop the banker in the last city, leave world's fair and op ivy on one turn, etc.

I was recently wondering though, what is the benefit of getting all the victory paths complete before you win? I always do it, but does it level up the leader or foundation level? Because forcing end turn forever is incredibly boring.

You get leader experience for completing the legacy paths (not the victory projects though).


I made note of the timings of all the legacy paths in my last Modern Age. Standard speed, but I went into it being ahead of the AIs for once:

Military: turn 27
Culture: turn 57
Economic: turn 58
Science: turn 61

Now, if I had spent less cash on conquest, I could have accelerated the others. But I don't think I would have managed any other legacy path in 27 turns.
 
I was recently wondering though, what is the benefit of getting all the victory paths complete before you win? I always do it, but does it level up the leader or foundation level? Because forcing end turn forever is incredibly boring.
On top of what Uppi said, you get bonus XP for completing 2 and 3 legacy paths (Up to 3 games per leader) each age. You may also want extra time to complete the Civ and Leader quests which give XP.

I typically do 2 each modern age
 
Just the legacy path, so no Project Ivy (which I delayed to be able to do the other paths as well). Deity difficulty. Xerxes with Mississippians/Hawaii/Japan.

I love Mississippians. I bet they're even better post patch with all the food adjacencies. When I played them the first time I went into Shawnee for roleplay, which I'd never played either. I always go for suzerains instead of supporting endeavors, to the detriment of my play I think. But Shawnee infantry with seven IPs suzerained and commander bonuses are insane. Sorry totally off topic but I love playing those two.
 
Era change has kind of always been part of Civ franchise. But the emergent storytelling* was in that that there was no explicit transition between eras. You were hunting dears and suddenly you sent your battleships conquering the world ? Amazing !
There's also a gameplay/feeling part in its failure : you run out of time quickly ; you can't do everything even on difficulty 1 and long ages. And the game is not more fast for as much : without wars, turns follow themselves without much happening. Building times also have increased, if it was not enough.

So yeah, there's a stale feeling and feeling of urgency at the same time that's unpleasant.

There's also the units reset : I had two full of units commanders, result : only one kept its troops if I'm right.

* I call emergent storytelling something the player has to remark himself and make of it kind of a story or rewrite history.
I agree with the sentiment of this, I don’ think it’s the eras themselves.
I have a few musings after 250 hrs. ( I like the game but it could be better)

1. Era’s are too short. Often don’t get enough time to do the tasks, or just enjoy your empire. Agree. This tends to be more felt as the ages progress.
-Modern can be very short if your empire is big and you have lots of boosts.
-Hoping future expansions add more to each era.
-Started playing on longer eras mode but it gets grindy in the last few turns if you do well (that’s a Civ standard for late game :p)

2. Think the attribute system and narrative system partially drown out a sense of connection with later empires, particularly in modern. Your empire bonuses are just one of many late game.

3. Some Civs have very weak tradition policy cards that don’t carry over well. Very niche abilities like bonuses on rivers, need to have a stacking per era.
- Mayan or Greek traditions are more universal than say Egypts or Songhai’s

4. Some victory paths are too easy or too quick. Like culture in exploration.

5. Narrative events; are to invisible and maybe too many. We play Civ cause we like strategy. You take a Civ or leader and see how you can use their abilities to best affect. The joy is in figuring out how to maximize their bonus with other mechanics and figuring what works with your play style.
-Narrative events undermine this, but if they were more visible to the player like goodie huts then, it’s an exciting earned boost.


Recommended fixes
1. Increase the points needed some era paths, like more relics for sure, or less ‘free’ ones in the tech tree. As new Civs get added to the game so do more wonders, making the Ancient era culture game easier. Raise the bar.
2. Weaken attribute point system. Reduce power of some, make the rewards harder to get. Should only get them from completing Golden age not the partial goal points.
Honestly I would almost scrap attributes and replace with momento slots that are earns with progress or just get small buffs to each leaders 2 types, eg military/ science etc. similar to the 1st boosts in each tree. Ibn gets access to all.
3. Age process rewards are more fun when they give the temporary effect, keep cities, wonders give culture, keep religion. Golden ages should be harder to get and give one attribute point only at final tier plus other effect.
4. Boost the traditions of some Civs per age for niche effects. Like culture on navigable rivers.
5. Strengthen natural wonders, make interacting with the board better. (The late game policy for wonders is good). There is a reason Isabel is fun and strong. Maybe weaker wonder policies for 1st two eras.
6. Narrative events- more thematic ones to your Civ and leader are the better ones.
- they all need to be more ‘visible’ to the player. Civ is popular as a planning game, not a luck or role playing game.
 
Odd that you say that when I think the opposite is true, civ change is there to please the people who had an issue with bronze age George Washington among other things.

One of the main problems I have currently with this game is that no matter what, if I am playing a Native American civilization, I am necessarily colonized, there is no escape. Because IRL these people were genocided, and denied a level of independence unlike anything seen in another continent, well, they too vanish in the game.

Didn't happen in any other game. Never had "real history" be so exclusive before. Civ 1 didn't go "hey Aztecs, your time is up, go to the grave."

Oh sure I can imagine in my mind if I like go from Inca to Nepal but man, I didn't have to imagine stuff before. And don't get me started on the colonial nations, stuff like Shawnee to US (but you imagine the US wasn't genocidal) might as well be Mutapa to Rodhesia (but you imagine there is less aparthaid)

I don't understand why this issue bothers you, when the entire series has involved annexation, war, and genocide.
 
I don't understand why this issue bothers you, when the entire series has involved annexation, war, and genocide.
One is in-game and under your control, the other is imposing a real life continental genocide upon the player even if they are undefeated.
 
Are you trying to imply the Normans only don't exist now because the French committed continental genocide?
 
That's the fastest win I've heard of. Granted I don't really watch YouTubers or whatever. Nice job! Is that just completing the path or with op ivy? What difficulty?
Somebody did a turn 3 military victory because Bulgaria + Buganda is a broken combination.

I'm not a super hardcore player but my personal records after patch 1.1.1 for each victory (including the final project) are turn 27 Military, turn 35 Science, turn 44 Culture and turn 48 Economic. That's on Deity Standard size map.
 
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