Why have incels gotten so much attention?

[Peuri]

I agree you're probably hearing about them more because of violent crimes, I feel they really sort of came more into the spotlight after that man in Toronto attacked women with his van, I mean an event like that is very newsworthy and you're going to get information on his background and motives, which brings to light groups he's connected with.

I've read before how incels are sort of a hijacked group, I heard they started out as a niche online dating forum for both men and women who've had difficulty with relationships, but from what I understand it got sort of taken over by men who are angry. I feel incels, men's rights activists, men going their own way, and such are all similar at their core because they all blame women for their problems, and lament how women's progress and liberation has caused harm to traditional male dominance and privilege, and honestly all those extremists frighten me. My feeling is incels would love to see women enslaved (I've heard things like some Canadian writer whose name I forget believes women should be forced into monogamous relationships), and others probably wouldn't agree with them, like from what I understand mgtow have their feelings because they believe women are evil and have too many rights and aren't worth relationships because we can't be controlled.

But anyways I'm sorry, I do feel you'd hear more about those other groups if members started carrying out violence, or have celebrity spokesmen or something. I mean, there are many sects and cults you don't hear much about because they just don't do anything newsworthy (subjugation of women is a very common theme I believe you'll find though.)

MGTOW is to MRAs what radical feminists are to feminism. I'm eagerly waiting for what ever is the lesbian feminism of the MRA movement.

 

[brennan]

I feel incels, men's rights activists, men going their own way, and such are all similar at their core because they all blame women for their problems, and lament how women's progress and liberation has caused harm to traditional male dominance and privilege, and honestly all those extremists frighten me.

Like MRAs, they seem only to be publicised in the mainstream by their opponents.

I should also have said that like MRAs, the common perception of them (incels) is driven entirely by what their political opponents say about them. MRAs in particular are commonly opposed to the very idea that feminist theories such as the ones Mary cites have any explanatory value at all in our modern societies and feel that attempts to solve societal problems using ideas based on notions of 'rape culture' and 'patriarchy theory' are misguided and doing more damage. See for example GirlWritesWhat? (Karen Straughan)'s videos critiquing feminist theory.

Imagine if the media presented any feminist as being someone like this:

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...y-90-percent-the-solution-to-all-our-problems

That's the basic equivalent.

 

[HoloDoc]

It helps that they are appearing at the exact same time that the alt-right is rising. They are essentially subsumed into that movement - and incidentally, this focus on far-right MRAs has essentially destroyed the far more sensible left-wing MRA movement - and alt-right leaders have been known to use incel chat rooms as recruiting grounds. You find an angry young man, who may even have a legitimate grievance, and you rile them up, you have a very good chance of creating a good little foot soldier. Tbh, if my nasty divorce had happened when I was 18 instead of 28, I would have been a prime candidate for those guys; by 28 I was too worldly, but at 18 I was a dumb angry kid who hated the world, and was looking for someone to blame for it. Throw in #metoo, and the inevitable backlash, some of it legitimate, and you have a lot of attention directed at a fairly small group.

 

[DJNotNice]

MGTOW is to MRAs what radical feminists are to feminism. I'm eagerly waiting for what ever is the lesbian feminism of the MRA movement.

About 40 years too late for that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism

 

[Peuri]

About 40 years too late for that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism

Yeah, I know. The MGTOWs need their own "political homosexualism" to go somewhere in their tiers of social disengagement with women. Boom. Incel problem solved and homophobia destroyed.

 

[brennan]

It helps that they are appearing at the exact same time that the alt-right is rising.

There's also the effect that youngsters joining 'the left' think that being 'on the left' is all about identity politics &/or believing in climate change. Then when they try to have a sensible conversation about e.g. whether or not censorship is a good thing they get kicked out and told they are nazis. By default they then think they belong on the right. Lindsay Shepherd is a case in point.

Half of these youngsters haven't got a clue what the Labour movement was about (Lindsay Shepherd 'left the left' after she agreed with Jordan Peterson - more or less a classic Liberal - for heaven's sake.)

 

[Traitorfish]

I should also have said that like MRAs, the common perception of them (incels) is driven entirely by what their political opponents say about them..

Are we certain about this? The common identity of Incels is, quite explicitly, that of sexless, women-hating losers. Their identity seems to be formed mostly as a self-pitying acceptance of how the world already sees them, or how they imagine that the world sees them.

 

[HoloDoc]

There's also the effect that youngsters joining 'the left' think that being 'on the left' is all about identity politics &/or believing in climate change. Then when they try to have a sensible conversation about e.g. whether or not censorship is a good thing they get kicked out and told they are nazis. By default they then think they belong on the right. Lindsay Shepherd is a case in point.

Half of these youngsters haven't got a clue what the Labour movement was about (Lindsay Shepherd 'left the left' after she agreed with Jordan Peterson - more or less a classic Liberal - for heaven's sake.)

There is definitely a phenomenon of people, particularly young white men, abandoning the Left for the Right, because they don't think the Left is fixing their particular issues. That goes all the way back to Mussolini, who started as a socialist. Donald Trump is basically in office because of the flight of working class men from the Democracts to the Republicans. Speaking as a relatively left-wing guy who is active in Australian politics, I haven't seen what you're describing in the majority of the Left. The far-left, yeah.

 

[HoloDoc]

Are we certain about this? The common identity of Incels is, quite explicitly, that of sexless, women-hating losers. Their identity seems to be formed mostly as a self-pitying acceptance of how the world already sees them, or how they imagine that the world sees them.

I used to joke that I was celibate by choice; EVERY WOMAN I KNOW'S CHOICE! Hiyooooo!

Little did I know idiots would take that seriously and build a movement around it.

 

[brennan]

...sexless, women-hating losers...self-pitying...

Is that how they would present themselves?

I haven't seen what you're describing in the majority of the Left. The far-left, yeah.

unfortunately the 'far left' as you put it (I would rather say that they are a subset of the left who have focused on issues of identity politics and marxist-feminism rather than economic and class issues) seem to be the majority of the movement on social media and represented in the mainstream media, e.g. BBC news, the Guardian columnists etc..

 

[Traitorfish]

There's also the effect that youngsters joining 'the left' think that being 'on the left' is all about identity politics &/or believing in climate change.

Were the Iraq War, financial crisis and Great Recession not things that happened in your timeline?

marxist-feminism rather than economic and class issues

 

[HoloDoc]

Is that how they would present themselves?

unfortunately the 'far left' as you put it (I would rather say that they are a subset of the left who have focused on issues of identity politics and marxist-feminism rather than economic and class issues) seem to be the majority of the movement on social media and represented in the mainstream media, e.g. BBC news, the Guardian columnists etc..

Fair enough to call them a sub-set. But as a guy that reads The Guardian every day, I can say that you're wrong. Or maybe only reading the articles you want to.

Yiu should also bear in that the media will often amplify what is easier to fight against. The Coalition in my own country does not want t fight an economic election, because they have ruined the economy. So instead, they amplify social issues that they think they can win on. Meanwhile, Labor is amplifying its economic message, because it wants to win the next election by as much as possible. The majority of the media leans right, so you end up with more of that message in the news.

 

[brennan]

Were the Iraq War, financial crisis and Great Recession not things that happened in your timeline?

You know perfectly well they were, and that I have made thousands of posts about them right here. But i'm banned from posting at the Guardian because I openly disagree with feminists. Tim apparently thinks i'm a Conservative ( ) simply because I disagree with feminist ideas about society.

I stand by what I said: people really do seem to be forgetting what the left is about.

 

[Traitorfish]

I stand by what I said: people really do seem to be forgetting what the left is about.

Who is "people"? Presumably "people" is not comprised of those persons who supported Sanders or Corbyn or Mélenchon or Iglesias, if they have so disregarded economics in favour of identity politics, presumably not those persons who made up the grassroots support of the most effective left-wing electoral interventions in recent memory, so- who?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Jordan Peterson - more or less a classic Liberal - for heaven's sake.)

Less. He calls himself a classical liberal but classical conservative would be a more accurate title.

 

[sophie]

unfortunately the 'far left' as you put it (I would rather say that they are a subset of the left who have focused on issues of identity politics and marxist-feminism rather than economic and class issues) seem to be the majority of the movement on social media and represented in the mainstream media, e.g. BBC news, the Guardian columnists etc..

How is feminism not about socio-economic issues? The whole marxist turn was the realization that power, identity and status are all indelibly linked in a capitalist system.

The other big constituent block of "identity politics" revolves around rights for people of color. Again I ask: how are prison reform, immigration reform, education reform et al. not about class and socio-economic issues?

 

[brennan]

I've already given Lindsay Shepherd as an example of someone whose conception of the left doesn't seem to have any reference to notions of economic class struggle. Tim as an example of someone who decides what side of the political spectrum someone is on based upon their acceptance/criticism of feminist thinking. Various Guardian columnists could be mentioned such as Suzanne Moore and Jessica Valenti, who quite openly consider anyone who disagrees with them to be a reactionary agent of the Patriarchy and therefore a fascist.

I've already stated that 'these people' are a subset of the left.

Not sure what more you need.

Here's an essay on the disjunction between marxism and feminism. And another one.

How is feminism not about socio-economic issues?

I never said it wasn't. But it tends to see these issues purely in the light of feminist theory - on the oppression of women by men, not in terms of the oppression of workers by the owners of capital - who don't really care what gender you are. See the essays. Or this one, based upon the writings of Engels about women, the family and class struggle.

Again I ask: how are prison reform, immigration reform, education reform et al. not about class and socio-economic issues?

Again, they are. But to a committed feminist these things are all invariably interpreted through a lens of feminist theory, which is simply not a necessary part of left wing thinking.

Edit: you guys are kind of proving my point over and over again.

Edit 2: The unhappy marriage of Marxism and Feminism

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I used to joke that I was celibate by choice; EVERY WOMAN I KNOW'S CHOICE! Hiyooooo!

Little did I know idiots would take that seriously and build a movement around it.

Another relevant joke that might have been taken seriously: Celibacy is the highest form of sexual awareness. Practice it long enough and you'll see a sexual advance in everything and anything.

 

[Traitorfish]

I've already given Lindsay Shepherd as an example of someone whose conception of the left doesn't seem to have any reference to notions of economic class struggle. Tim as an example of someone who decides what side of the political spectrum someone is on based upon their acceptance/criticism of feminist thinking. Various Guardian columnists could be mentioned such as Suzanne Moore and Jessica Valenti, who quite openly consider anyone who disagrees with them to be a reactionary agent of the Patriarchy and therefore a fascist.

Do you seriously imagine that the future of the left is the hands of a few marginal journalists and academics?

Mgtow-ism is a plausible, even logical, reaction to all of this. Arguable a necessary and healthy one.

You can't accuse others of arguing in bad faith and then saying something as transparently ridiculous as this.

 

[Senethro]

The solution for these young men is de-radicalization and de-programming, not less feminism.