Why have incels gotten so much attention?

[schlaufuchs]

Clearly you're not educated.

Men get way more jail time for same crimes and get shafted in family court.

There are issues if anyone cares to learn about them but very few do.

But its men's job to be stoic. Complaining is not for us.

Men are socially shamed for whining unless they're in a class that's allowed to. May be partially a good thing tho.

What does any of this have to do with what she said?

Mary: aspects of masculinity are oppressive of men

Narz: No! You don't understand! Don't you see? aspects of masculinity are oppressive of men!

kay.

Counterpoints:

1) in universities academia is overwhelmingly from a feminist/female perspective. "men's rights" or "men' issues" get no credence whatsoever. Mainstream academia overwhelmingly sides with feminists. And it also overwhelmingly agrees with the worldview that men get all the advantages and women are oppressed. Any disadvantages men may or may not have doesn't even get discussed whatsoever.

Isn't it funny how the people typically making condemnatory, sweeping statements against academia and with whom it does and does not side, have little-to-no actual experience with academia?

 

[Narz]

Men are usually not awarded with what they want in family court, but generally speaking they aren't qualified to get what they are asking for.

Is this opinion based on data?

 

[Narz]

What does any of this have to do with what she said?

She said men dont have any probs and MRA are woman-haters

Narz: No! You don't understand! Don't you see? aspects of masculinity are oppressive of men!

kay.

"Aspects or masculinity"? Wat? Parental alienation is an actual problem as is men being disportionally locked up.

 

[caketastydelish]

Men decide that.

What are you talking about?

 

[caketastydelish]

Here's something I wrote myself on Reddit on r/femradebates that I'm going to copy/paste here:

First, I am going to give a qualifier by saying I am not trying to sound snobby, hostile, or trying to "one-up" the feminists here. I'm genuinely open to a conversation and I'm not just trying to "win". If I were of that mentality I wouldn't even bother talking to them, including in this very sub. If an actual feminist read this I hope you respond even if you don't agree with me, because I enjoy reading things including points of view I don't agree with. Here it is:

First, (and this is something I brought up in this sub before) is that the possibility that men of color (as opposed to just women of color) being fetishized as either being harmless or something that can't happen at all. And even when it does, (this is just going off of feminism google searches I've done, to be fair) it's exclusively about gay white men fetishizing gay men of color.

In other words, the possibility that white heterosexual or bisexual women fetishizing men of color is something they either don't take seriously or think is harmless.

Realize that the one primary attack against the feminist movement is that it's "man-hating". I'm not here to say whether that's true or not, but even if it's not, try to understand where they're coming from.

1)White men fetishizing women of color is a problem.
2)Gay white men fetishizing gay men of color is a problem. 3)White women fetishizing men of color isn't a problem.

If feminists seriously believe these three things (to the best of my knowledge the majority do), then they are indeed 'man-hating' in the sense that they think only men are capable of damage or evil when it comes to racial fetishization. Or that white women would never do it in the first place. (and feminists reading this, please tell me which one of my assumptions are right or if I'm wrong altogether.)

I'm a man of color myself and had one very regrettable experience where I was sexually fetishized by a white woman, which is why this is kind of important to me.

The second problem I have with the feminist movement is I'm afraid they oversimply things. Again, tell me if I'm wrong about this: I went to Anita Sarkeesan's blog (Feminist Frequency) and she asserts that patriarchy is "a system in which men have exclusive power over women."

If this is a mainstream feminist point of view, then I definitely don't agree.

Even in the ancient times, long before the feminist movement had even been invented, there were some powerful women (Cleopatra, Boudica, Joan of Arc). But if we only look at the past 150 years or so where a lot of gains in women's rights have been made, the "men have exclusive power over women" argument becomes even harder to make.

I do think that overall the average man on this planet gets more power than the average women.

However, that's hardly "exclusive power". Exclusive power would be America before slavery was abolished. White people had exclusive power over black people. That was something you can prove with concrete, tangible evidence.

"Men have exclusive power over women", as an argument in 21st century America becomes much harder to rationally make, and at best you can only do it by making vague, broad assertions.

But here's my point: My first complaint with the feminist movement (white women fetishizing men of color is either impossible or harmless) seems to not be a coincidence with those who seriously believe "men have exclusive power over women."

If you genuinely believe that, then no wonder you wouldn't care if men of color get fetishized by white women because white women are still women and therefore can't do any harm.

Finally, not to sound like a broken record, but again, if any feminists are reading this please tell me where I went wrong, or if everything I said is true and you simply don't agree with me (and give reasons either way).

 

[Traitorfish]

How often do you see women saying "Where have all the good men gone?", or see them make fun of the nerdy guy who enjoys playing video games a bit too much for his age?

Literally never.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Is this opinion based on data?

Nope, observation. Every "shafted man" that I've ever met walked into family court demanding custody after a divorce and faced:

Who has been managing the feeding of this child you want custody of? Well, she has.
Who does the child's laundry? Well, she does.
Who provides home treatment for the minor ailments and injuries that this child, like all children, has experienced? Well, she has.
Do you have a plan for how you intend to manage these things for this child? Frankly, do you have a plan for managing these things for yourself now that you have no wife? Well, I have a girlfriend and plan to foist it all off on her.

Then they are offended and resentful when the court doesn't see their case as compelling.

 

[schlaufuchs]

She said men dont have any probs and MRA are woman-haters

Oh I definitely agree some subsets of men are disadvantaged and need help, such as black men, homosexual men, transgender men, and so on, but men's problems are caused by other men, not women. And of course you have toxic masculinity which hurts men, but that itself is another form of misogyny (you shouldn't be weak and soft like women!)

Try again.

And before you go after the second clause of the second bolded passage: her point is that toxic masculinity is problematic in that it employs women as a cudgel to beat down other men.

"Aspects or masculinity"? Wat? Parental alienation is an actual problem as is men being disportionally locked up.

Ok, I think we've been down this road a thousand times, so I don't think we're going to get anywhere, but whatever.

Men are disproportionately locked up. Ok. Why do you think this happens?

First, (and this is something I brought up in this sub before) is that the possibility that men of color (as opposed to just women of color) being fetishized as either being harmless or something that can't happen at all. And even when it does, (this is just going off of feminism google searches I've done, to be fair) it's exclusively about gay white men fetishizing gay men of color.

In other words, the possibility that white heterosexual or bisexual women fetishizing men of color is something they either don't take seriously or think is harmless.

Realize that the one primary attack against the feminist movement is that it's "man-hating". I'm not here to say whether that's true or not, but even if it's not, try to understand where they're coming from.

1)White men fetishizing women of color is a problem.
2)Gay white men fetishizing gay men of color is a problem. 3)White women fetishizing men of color isn't a problem.

If feminists seriously believe these three things (to the best of my knowledge the majority do), then they are indeed 'man-hating' in the sense that they think only men are capable of damage or evil when it comes to racial fetishization. Or that white women would never do it in the first place. (and feminists reading this, please tell me which one of my assumptions are right or if I'm wrong altogether.)

Literally the definition of a strawman argument.

 

[caketastydelish]

In fairness, I was pretty explicit when I said 'correct me if I'm wrong'.

As the resident feminist here, if you're here to do that then you have educated me. (not being sarcastic)

edit: I was only going off of google searches when I wrote that. From my research going off of google searches on things written by feminists, literally not one has complained about white women fetishizing men of color. Tons of hits of articles complaining about white men fetishizing women of color or gay white men fetishizing men of color.

If there's anything out there written by feminists that criticize white women for fetishizing men of color, I haven't seen it with my google-fu.

 

[Narz]

Nope, observation. Every "shafted man" that I've ever met walked into family court demanding custody after a divorce and faced:

Who has been managing the feeding of this child you want custody of? Well, she has.
Who does the child's laundry? Well, she does.
Who provides home treatment for the minor ailments and injuries that this child, like all children, has experienced? Well, she has.
Do you have a plan for how you intend to manage these things for this child? Frankly, do you have a plan for managing these things for yourself now that you have no wife? Well, I have a girlfriend and plan to foist it all off on her.

Then they are offended and resentful when the court doesn't see their case as compelling.

Well now you know someone that doesn't fit that narrative. I was primary caregiver for much of my daughters life while her mom was in bed being chornicly fatigued. She went 4 months once without seeing her or calling. Then she decided she wanted her back so kidnapped her and moved to Florida. When I tracked her down she filed a restraining order saying I'm a violent, scary man. I'm not going to go into all the details because its personal but needless to say I've never laid a finger on her. I did stupidly send a text threatening her boyfriend who had previously threatened to kill me and kill himself cause I was panicked cuz she was bringing him around my daughter. The custody stuff has been a nightmare and expensive and basically my ex has missed court multiple times, evaded being served, hit me with multiple fradulant restraining orders all with no consequence. I could've had my daughter removed from her when a Connecticut court ruled I had legal custody but didnt want to have my daughter removed forcibly from her mom however unfit I thought she was. But the Florida judge has been awful. Classic captain save-a-ho (but since hes male I guess its a "patriarchy" issue lol

 

[Mouthwash]

I agree you're probably hearing about them more because of violent crimes, I feel they really sort of came more into the spotlight after that man in Toronto attacked women with his van, I mean an event like that is very newsworthy and you're going to get information on his background and motives, which brings to light groups he's connected with.

I've read before how incels are sort of a hijacked group, I heard they started out as a niche online dating forum for both men and women who've had difficulty with relationships, but from what I understand it got sort of taken over by men who are angry. I feel incels, men's rights activists, men going their own way, and such are all similar at their core because they all blame women for their problems, and lament how women's progress and liberation has caused harm to traditional male dominance and privilege, and honestly all those extremists frighten me. My feeling is incels would love to see women enslaved (I've heard things like some Canadian writer whose name I forget believes women should be forced into monogamous relationships), and others probably wouldn't agree with them, like from what I understand mgtow have their feelings because they believe women are evil and have too many rights and aren't worth relationships because we can't be controlled.

But anyways I'm sorry, I do feel you'd hear more about those other groups if members started carrying out violence, or have celebrity spokesmen or something. I mean, there are many sects and cults you don't hear much about because they just don't do anything newsworthy (subjugation of women is a very common theme I believe you'll find though.)

Oh I definitely agree some subsets of men are disadvantaged and need help, such as black men, homosexual men, transgender men, and so on, but men's problems are caused by other men, not women. And of course you have toxic masculinity which hurts men, but that itself is another form of misogyny (you shouldn't be weak and soft like women!)

From my perspective, groups like men going their own way and incels are all types of "men's rights activists", and they're all misogynists, they're all about restoring men's "rights" over women and some sort of weird believe in some inherent right to male dominance, and how women are too uppity and such because we demand actual equality.

Are you trying to argue something here, or are we just rattling off our favorite feminist talking points? I don't think it's exactly fair to frame a discussion on that (except for the Jordan Peterson claim, which is an egregious lie).

EDIT: I'm sorry, I can't help it. If someone came in here posting 'women are biologically wired to have babies with alphas while taking advantage of betas' desperation', you can bet the entire forum would dogpile him. Yet you feel it is acceptable to claim men who don't subscribe to feminist ideology are emotionally repressed because they don't want to be feminine.

 

[Narz]

Men are disproportionately locked up. Ok. Why do you think this happens?.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_1874742

Learn for yourself

 

[schlaufuchs]

In fairness, I was pretty explicit when I said 'correct me if I'm wrong'.

"Correct me if I'm wrong" doesn't absolve you of creating a strawman argument. In the same way that "I'm not racist, but [racist statement]" doesn't absolve you of the [racist statement] you just made.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_1874742

Learn for yourself

That article merely reiterates what you said. I'm not denying what you said is true. I'm asking you: "why do you think this phenomenon happens"?

 

[Ryika]

Literally never.

I hear it quite often. Maybe the difference is class (I'm living in a socially disadvantaged area with socially disadvantaged people of low education) and the less socially progressive mindset that comes with it, or maybe it's just that I'm a woman who is surrounded by other women all the time.

"Correct me if I'm wrong" doesn't absolve you of creating a strawman argument. In the same way that "I'm not racist, but [racist statement]" doesn't absolve you of the [racist statement] you just made.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but [racist statement]" and "I'm not racist, but [racist statement]" are two very different things. He's asking you to point out why you think it is a strawman argument, is he not?

 

[caketastydelish]

Ok sure whatever.

Can you answer my other question? If what I said is wrong where’s the proof? My google hits on the topic seem to agree with me.

Edit: @Owen

 

[schlaufuchs]

Ok sure whatever.

Can you answer my other question? If what I said is wrong where’s the proof? My google hits on the topic seem to agree with me.

Edit: @Owen

I literally don't understand the argument you're making. You are saying white women "fetishize" men of color as harmless or not romantically viable? You do know what the word "fetishize" means, right? Because that sentence, as I understand your intended meaning, is contradictory in nature.

 

[caketastydelish]

Ok all the hits I’ve seen on google by feminists are saying at the very least it’s problematic or harmful for men to do it to women of color or for gay white men to do it gay men of color.

I haven’t anything that makes the same assertion if it’s a white female doing it to a man of color.

Edit: the personal experience I’m talking about.


She didn’t give a **** about me as a person or human being. She’d just never been a guy of middle eastern ancestry so used me as a bucket list. She had expectations of me based on racial stereotypes that are in no way shape or form what I actually am. She even admitted to after it ended that she was partially motivated by middle eastern male customers being dicks to her where she worked and in “your culture they teach you not you do this and sleep around easily so you betrayed them” (her words not mine.)

I also lost my virginity to this girl. I was genuinely hurt.

 

[Narz]

That article merely reiterates what you said. I'm not denying what you said is true. I'm asking you: "why do you think this phenomenon happens"?

Because women are seen as less threatening than men therefore women can get away with more.

Also, this Ted talk should be required viewing for this thread

 

[schlaufuchs]

Because women are seen as less threatening than men.

And why are women seen as less threatening than men?

 

[Mouthwash]

Because of their genes?