Why have Sumeria AND Babylon?

[RJMooreII]

What is the point of having Sumerians and Babylonians? The Babylonian Empire is basically just an extension of what Sumer started, geographically, culturally, ethnically and politically they are contiguous and continuous; the only major difference is that the Sumerian language is an isolate but it rapidly disappears except as a religious language to be replaced by Akkadian.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

the same reason Byzantium, Constantinople, and Istanbul can be part of one game.

 

[RJMooreII]

the same reason Byzantium, Constantinople, and Istanbul can be part of one game.

Sure, but those are just city names. At least the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire are distinctive. If you eliminated the Sumerians you could put an entirely other civilization in there. Like...anything from South America?

 

[Abaddon]

Like who? What significant civilization that wasn't in the conquests X-pac?

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Like who? What significant civilization that wasn't in the conquests X-pac?

Siam.

 

[RJMooreII]

Siam.

Siam.
Tibet DID used to be a pretty big country.
A pre-modern Vedic or Hindi country ('India' is a creation of Britain and the modern era)
Brazil has a population of almost 200 million people.
Mali's king, Mansa Musa, was one of the richest men in all history.

And, as culturally interesting as they may be many more politically/militarily insignificant 'nations' are included, like all of the Native Americans except for the Aztek.

 

[GamezRule]

Sumeria was the first civilization, and that makes then deserving to be in the game.

Babylon conquered Sumeria, but was quickly overran by Persia.

 

[RJMooreII]

Sumeria was the first civilization, and that makes then deserving to be in the game.

Babylon conquered Sumeria, but was quickly overran by Persia.

Babylon really isn't any different from Sumeria, though. Some language differences, but it's entirely continuous and contiguous. Sumer wasn't even an empire, it was a league of city states with very loose tributary powers over other city states. The Babylonian Empire is the actual integration of the system of warfare we association with Sumer. The only reason 'Sumer' is really distinctive at all is 1) language and 2) it was what was before Babylon centralized the city states into a more organized kingship.

There was never any central leader in Sumer. Just warring Lugash'.

It's also not obvious that Sumer was the 'first' civilization. Just the westernmost one we have a lot of written records of. People were living in cities, had organized farming and used well-developed tools and communication methods before Sumer; Sumer was one among many. It is notable for widespread (in the sense of inter-regional) literacy, which is certainly something, but even here it's not obvious they were the first; especially given that their language is such an isolate.

There are far more cultural and language differences between Alexander's army and Greece than Sumer and Babylon. More Greeks fought for Xerxes than Alexander; both before and after his conquest of the Near East. Yet he is the default Greek leader.

 

[Raliuven]

My guess is that they did it for the marketing. It's easier to convince the Sumarians to buy the game if their Civ is included.

You would do just as good by asking why America deserves to be a Civ. It only formed in the last 500 years and is really just an extension of England or at best a melding pot for a hodge-podge of nationalities. Canada or Austriala would be just as valid. Even its rise to center stage only occured in the last 100 years.

Anyone want to tackle the Korea question again?

 

[Sparthage]

Anyone want to tackle the Korea question again?

If we start discussing that, we'll end up arguing about either the Ottoman Empire vs. the Byzantines or about the American education system.

 

[Quintillus]

Why have both Rome and the Byzantine Empire? The Byzantine Empire not only wasn't much different, it was the Eastern Roman Empire and was known as the Imperium Romanum in its time.

I find it funny that we're still discussing this seven plus years after Conquests came out, though!

 

[GamezRule]

Because the Byzantine Empire evolved into something different after the West Rome was dead and gone.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Because the Byzantine Empire evolved into something different after the West Rome was dead and gone.

True. They are deserving to both be in the game. But I think Sumeria and Babylon are about the same and I agree with the majority, it's fine they're both in the game. I remember before CivV came out, there was a 40 page discussion about which Civs should be in a game. That got nasty.

 

[GamezRule]

Korea should be tossed out and Austria-Hungary unlocked. They are in the game, apparently, but locked.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Korea should be tossed out and Austria-Hungary unlocked. They are in the game, apparently, but locked.

I want to know how to unlock that civ, anyone know?

 

[GamezRule]

Google has all the answers.

 

[Raliuven]

Luckily there is a fix if you don't think a Civ deserves to be in the game.

 

[darski]

If you visit the C&C forums you can get just about any Civ you want to add and instructions about how to change the Civs as well.

 

[vorlon_mi]

There could be simpler, more practical reasons why the Sumerians were added in C3C. Unlike Civ 4, one cannot have two different leaders for the same civ. The Sumerians are agricultural, which gives a different flavor to their expansion, and have a more defensive UU. Not a great UU, necessarily, but different.

The Babylonians are scientific, and have a UU that is part of the attacking forces of the ancient age. Again, promotes a different playstyle.

Could make for interesting games on Terra maps, in culturally linked starting locations.
And all of this is independent of what the civs/tribes did in RL.

 

[Jyhawk]

There are many civilizations that occupied the middle east. I've noticed that in many games you can see cities of different civilizations, sometimes with only slightly different names, that are actually the same city historically. (e.g. Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul)