Why is 'Dark Ages' considered innacurate?

[Dachs]

I don't quite follow how "high" implies prosperity and advancement. Maybe it means the Middle Ages were at their height, it was the climax of the era (which doesn't imply it was the most prosperous part of the era). When someone says "Middle Ages" people tend to think of the "High Middle Ages" because its in the middle and when most of the things we associate with the medieval period were at their height (knights, crusades, etc). I have always seen it more as that, though if you know a history of the term that might clear things up a bit.

That basically demonstrates the same thing, though; the "High" Middle Ages were more [insert some good thing here, such as glory-days chivalry or whatever] than their predecessor and successor.

 

[holy king]

I've always correlated the "high" in "High Middle Ages" with its the high populations, which is pretty much true compared to the other periods across the board.

it means it was the pinnacle of the middle ages.

whatever that is supposed to mean.

 

[bombshoo]

That basically demonstrates the same thing, though; the "High" Middle Ages were more [insert some good thing here, such as glory-days chivalry or whatever] than their predecessor and successor.

Well I guess if you think chivalry and the what-not was good. Most of that crap was pretty stupid and just excuses to keep peasants in their place and kill Jews and what not.

 

[LightSpectra]

Well I guess if you think chivalry and the what-not was good. Most of that crap was pretty stupid and just excuses to keep peasants in their place and kill Jews and what not.

I can tell you're a professional historian.

 

[bombshoo]

I can tell you're a professional historian.

While I do generally have disdain for the prevailing attitudes of the Middle Ages, I was mostly being facetious with that comment. While engaging in warfare for arguably stupid reasons (such as the Crusades) was considered chivalrous, I do realize it was also much more complex than that.

 

[Bill3000]

That basically demonstrates the same thing, though; the "High" Middle Ages were more [insert some good thing here, such as glory-days chivalry or whatever] than their predecessor and successor.

Well, they were cooler.

 

[LightSpectra]

Well, they were cooler.

I can agree with that. The 13th century to me is more fascinating than any other in history.

 

[Lord Baal]

I can agree with that. The 13th century to me is more fascinating than any other in history.

Bah, haven't you seen The Invention of Lying? It's nothing but the Black Plague, over and over!

 

[sydhe]

Bah, haven't you seen The Invention of Lying? It's nothing but the Black Plague, over and over!

Not true. It's the 14th century that's nothing but the Black Plague, over and over!

 

[Lord Baal]

Not true. It's the 14th century that's nothing but the Black Plague, over and over!

I was pretty sure it was the 13th century in the movie, even though that's not really accurate.

 

[rollo1066]

It wasn't dark for the whole world just for what used to be the Western Roman Empire. This period includes Tang dynasty China. The highest point of the Maya civilization. The founding of the Arab empire. Also the Eastern Roman Empire continued. bY 1200 the dark ages were over for western Europe and the High Middle Ages had started.

 

[LightSpectra]

I don't know why you're set upon resurrecting dead threads, but as I've already explained multiple times, calling the Frankish Empire at its height "dark" is extremely wrong.

 

[Ajidica]

Agreed, although the Carolingian Renniassance wasn't hugely influential because it didn't have any immediate impact on society. After Charlemagne his empire fell apart with idiots on the throne. (The two Emperors at the time, Louis the Fat and Charles the Bald give you a decent idea of their capabilities).
I believe we decided earlier in the thread that the only time one could use 'dark ages' as a large scale term was after the death of Theodoric the Ostrogoth and ending with the loss of large scale Byzantine control of Italy. Even then it can only really be applied to Italy. While although I would have hated to be a peasant in early Merovingian France it wasn't as sucky as 'Dark Ages' make it out to be.
In summary: Dark Ages is a term applied to a prior period in history by an 'enlightened' period to try and show their superiority. Just like the Renniassance. (The Renniassance is easier to define as it is based on social shifts). Examples:
>Most famous, the European Renniassance.
>Other: The Macedonian Renniassance refering to the prior 'Dark Age' under the Heraclian Sucessors and Isaurians IIRC.
Please don't ressurect this thread again. It reminds me of the poor logic and faulty reasoning I have at 2 in the morning. I'd rather not see this thread again.

Off topic question: Ive noticed that a 'Renniassance' occurs during a time of social stability. Is my hypothesis remotly accurate?

 

[LightSpectra]

Agreed, although the Carolingian Renniassance wasn't hugely influential because it didn't have any immediate impact on society.

"Wasn't hugely influential?" Son, we'd barely have an inkling of who Julius Caesar was had the Franks not preserved pre-medieval historical texts. 80 to 90% of all surviving works in Latin come from the Carolingian Renaissance, and our modern form of handwriting is derived from the Carolingians by proxy of 14th century humanists.

 

[Ajidica]

Thats why I added immediate impact. After Charlemagnes Empire collapsed I don't remember seeing refrences to alot of higher learning. People aren't interested in learning the perfect past tense in latin when Vikings and MAgyars are rampaging around your farms.

 

[Dachs]

Off topic question: Ive noticed that a 'Renniassance' occurs during a time of social stability. Is my hypothesis remotly accurate?

A renaissance occurs when French people monopolize the history of the period. Otherwise, it'd be called a revival or something.

 

[Traitorfish]

A renaissance occurs when French people monopolize the history of the period. Otherwise, it'd be called a revival or something.

But "the" Renaissance was primarily driven by Italians, wasn't it?

 

[B_B_]

In ancient times, humanity understood that the world was round, grammar, mathematics & geometry are understood. There had been naval explorations around Africa, philosophers had proposed a wide range of theories about the universe without the fear of being torn apart and set on fire by a swarm of fanatics, there was trade with China and the east, art had perspective and anatomy, Urban life flourished, and life expectancy for a citizen was at least 45 (the retiring age of a legionary) if you made it past 5.

Flash-forward to the European dark ages: Humanity believes the world is flat, proposing anything out of the ordinary is a ticket to death, urban life collapses, walled fortresses guarding farmlands are the population centers, learning shifts to secluded monasteries of translation and repetition, feudalism( very real, historical system of fief holding and oaths of allegiance through military aid. ) Art dropped in quality to the point of crude religious cartoons.
Average life span for the peasant: 30.

What am I not seeing?

But "the" Renaissance was primarily driven by Italians, wasn't it?

Renaissance, i believe, means 're-birth' in Latin or Italian. Of Roman and Ancient ideas. There was an Italian and a northern European renaissance.

 

[BananaLee]

Flash-forward to the European dark ages: Humanity believes the world is flat,

Wat?

proposing anything out of the ordinary is a ticket to death,

Wat?

urban life collapses, walled fortresses guarding farmlands are the population centers

So walled fortresses are not.... towns?

learning shifts to secluded monasteries of translation and repetition

Er.. Oxford.. Bologna...

feudalism( very real, historical system of fief holding and oaths of allegiance through military aid. )

As opposed to?

Art dropped in quality to the point of crude religious cartoons.

You must hate Picasso

Average life span for the peasant: 30.

30 including those who died in childhood.

What am I not seeing?

Your idiocy.

Renaissance, i believe, means 're-birth' in Latin or Italian. Of Roman and Ancient ideas. There was an Italian and a northern European renaissance.

I refer you to the Lord of Roman-fellation, Petrarch

 

[LightSpectra]

Flash-forward to the European dark ages: Humanity believes the world is flat,

This myth has been refuted so many times that there's actually a Wikipedia article about how stupid it is.

proposing anything out of the ordinary is a ticket to death,

Citation needed. The philosophy of Johannes Scotus Eriugena is among the strangest I've ever encountered; it's certainly at odds with that of Catholic dogma, and though his works were condemned, he died a peaceful death while continuing his writings. (Though there's a myth that his students stabbed him to death because he kept failing them for not understanding his works.)

urban life collapses, walled fortresses guarding farmlands are the population centers,

Kay, and?

learning shifts to secluded monasteries of translation and repetition,

From a modern perspective, this would be considered better, since it means anybody willing to become a monk can receive an education, as opposed to only the .1% richest part of Roman society. I also remind you that over 90% of all surviving Latin texts from the Roman Empire were produced in Carolingian monasteries. We'd likely think that Julius Caesar was a mythological being had it not been for Charlemagne's massive educational reforms.

feudalism( very real, historical system of fief holding and oaths of allegiance through military aid. )

This is not an improvement over Rome's system of slavery, how?

Art dropped in quality to the point of crude religious cartoons.

The early Middle Ages were "dark" because you like their art less. Okey dokey.

Average life span for the peasant: 30.

Is this lower than that during the Roman era? Citation is necessary on this point.