Why is Korea, of all civs, constantly portrayed as super science civ in civ series?

[Lord Lakely]

The reason why Korea is always portrayed as a Science Civ is because they are the best choice for one from that reason. China is a scientific powerhouse but known for other things as well (heavy industry, agriculture, high population, expansion, warfare, wonder building, strongly developed culture). Other nations from that part of the world, like Japan and Indonesia aren't specifically sciency; Korea is though, so they're relegated that role.

The alternative is making them a defensive cultural Civ with a penchant for navies and late-game science, but that is a niche which suits Japan a lot better imo.

 

[Phrozen]

Like has been said, its a snapshot of a period of time, or periods of time with some civs with uu's in other time periods.

I wouldn't call modern Korea all that scientific, more of an economic powerhouse (South obviously). As a proud supporter of Capitalism, I am impressed at what Korea has achieved. Their economy in the 50's was very poor, now look at them. As for Science, Japan has accomplished much much more. Not to mention the tech sector in California (yet America is portrayed as cultural). They went from a poor farming nation to an economic powerhouse.

America as a cultural powerhouse from the Modern, though it really started in the Industrial, age on is actually incredibly accurate portrayal. Entertainment in the 20th century was predominantly American and American influenced.

 

[Pythakoreas]

My interpretation of Korea being a Science powerhouse is the Korean obsession with education. During the Korean War foreigners were surprised by the Korean dedication to send their children to school despite having their entire country torn down by war. I suggest you to do a quick Google search on the living hell S.Korean kids go through in high school to prepare for University. Even their Unique District in Civ6 is basically a school.

It has to do with Confucian religion/ideology deeply rooted into Korean culture. Confucius used to say that once the basic needs for life have been met the next priority is education. In Confucian countries success in the essay writing exam was the most reliable way of joining the ruling elite. In fact, the atmosphere is similar in other countries where Confucianism has been the dominant religion/philosophy, e.g. China/Vietnam/Japan (kind of)

A Seowon giving bonuses to Farms and Mines make very little sense but it does represent the emergence of S.Korea into a global power 1960s-1990s. After the Korean War the country was in ruins. The S.Korean obsession with education meant that a highly educated workforce was always there to fill the needs of economic development plans of the period. By the 90's S.Korea made its way into being one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Other examples of countries starting from extreme poverty to being a regional power are very rare. Japan and Germany's post-war economic miracle is a different story. These countries were wealthy before. Koreans were basically... always poor since the 19th Century.

 

[Tacgnol]

Mongolians weren't always a people waging war on horseback.

Ehhh, on that one, they pretty much were, except for when they were occupied by the soviets or when they were just herding sheep on horseback instead of waging war

 

[halfhalfharp]

My interpretation of Korea being a Science powerhouse is the Korean obsession with education. During the Korean War foreigners were surprised by the Korean dedication to send their children to school despite having their entire country torn down by war. I suggest you to do a quick Google search on the living hell S.Korean kids go through in high school to prepare for University. Even their Unique District in Civ6 is basically a school.

It has to do with Confucian religion/ideology deeply rooted into Korean culture. Confucius used to say that once the basic needs for life have been met the next priority is education. In Confucian countries success in the essay writing exam was the most reliable way of joining the ruling elite. In fact, the atmosphere is similar in other countries where Confucianism has been the dominant religion/philosophy, e.g. China/Vietnam/Japan (kind of)

A Seowon giving bonuses to Farms and Mines make very little sense but it does represent the emergence of S.Korea into a global power 1960s-1990s. After the Korean War the country was in ruins. The S.Korean obsession with education meant that a highly educated workforce was always there to fill the needs of economic development plans of the period. By the 90's S.Korea made its way into being one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Other examples of countries starting from extreme poverty to being a regional power are very rare. Japan and Germany's post-war economic miracle is a different story. These countries were wealthy before. Koreans were basically... always poor since the 19th Century.

And now korean girls saved all their money to go plastic surgery instead of going uni. Anyway, it doesn't reflect Seondeok's era.

Moderator Action: Please do not stereotype, this is twice you've mentioned this. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Vandlys]

Alfred the great would like to have a talk with you. He developed a naval presence specifically against the vikings... and it worked.

That might be the case, but still the Vikings combined had a stronger naval presence back then than Alfred did. Then of course in that time period there were other civilisations that were far more focussed on building large navies, and better known for it too. So England wasn't exactly -the- naval power back then, that's all I meant to say : )

Ehhh, on that one, they pretty much were, except for when they were occupied by the soviets or when they were just herding sheep on horseback instead of waging war

Is that so? Hmm, I don't know all that much about Mongolian history, but seeing I only know the more well-known Khan stuff, I guessed there was more to them than just what we see portrayed in Civ.

 

[Pythakoreas]

As to educational and literary enlightenment, at the close of Joseon Dynasty Korea in 1895, the literacy rate was around 3-4% The parasitic upper class (Yangban) were literate and attended these OP as designed Seowons but were not interested in the lower classes being educated in order to keep their grip on power.

By literacy rate do you mean hanja-literate? The Yangban elite insisted on doing everything prestigious in Chinese written language, something most people didn't have the opportunity to learn. Learning Chinese written language (hanja) for a Korean speaker can be a challenge so an alternative for lower social classes was invented by Sejong, called hangul. Hangul is very easy and accessible, basically even if you don't speak Korean you can start to read Korean.

I agree: there is no reason to portrait Korea as a science powerhouse, especially if you compare it with the Western powers and China. I hope is not because of the stereotype "Asians are good in science". Tireless, along History, Korea tried not to lag behind China in terms of science, culture and technology. That was worthy of applause and recognition, but that does not make you the best scientific civilization in the world (at least in Firaxis's opinion).

Depends on which historical period we're talking about. With Sejong, Korea was one of the leading countries in Science, mostly due to Sejong's personal obsession with Science (and Culture, and Politics, and giving worthy people a high office).

Later on during 1592 war against Japan, Koreans were clearly behind to Japanese innovation. Later on in the 19th Century, traditionalist people still didn't want to modernize the kingdom. They didn't even try to not lag behind. That resulted to Japan annexing Korea into their empire in 1910, the former very passionate about their modernization (Meiji Restoration, their Civ6 Civ ability bears its namesake). Very shameful period in Korean history.

 

[Eric Guimarães]

Korea has always invested on education and their culture is somehow linked to it (for example the "Seonbi" and the Seowons...)
If you measure science output by inventions,they invented the movable type two centuries before Gutenberg's and developed sophisticated refrigeration systems back then...

 

[halfhalfharp]

Korea has always invested on education and their culture is somehow linked to it (for example the "Seonbi" and the Seowons...)
If you measure science output by inventions,they invented the movable type two centuries before Gutenberg's and developed sophisticated refrigeration systems back then...

Emmm actually movable type was Chinese invention, in the Nothern Song dynasty. I am not sure about the refrigeration system but in fact many civs also stored ice in caves for usage in hot days, or harnessed the lower temperature of underground water/melted snow.

 

[Eric Guimarães]

The only thing I think they should change about Korea, is that Seowons should give a Governor title only, because they were academies that prepared it's scholars to public service mainly.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Emmm actually movable type was Chinese invention, in the Nothern Song dynasty. I am not sure about the refrigeration system but in fact many civs also stored ice in caves for usage in hot days, or harnessed the lower temperature of underground water/melted snow.

I think it's the metal-based movable type that was first invented in Korea. Before Sejong's time.

Under Sejong several other inventions were made. The rain gauge. A phonetics system and a written language derived from it.
Refined versions of the sun clock, water clock, astronomy tools, palace instruments, arrows and weaponized rocketry (Hwacha in Civ6 and Civ5)
Yes, all of these are credited to Sejong.

 

[TomKQT]

OP or not I still don't like playing one trick pony civs. Got zero desire to try out zulu's and mongols.

I had a very nice almost peaceful game as Zulu and I won a cultural victory. The cheaper encampment with housing bonus is a good source of some production.

 

[nzcamel]

It's game balance. If everything was attributed true to life then some Civs would be hugely OP compared to others. Korea being a bigger science Civ than many of the others in game is like Brazil having a super duper battle ship and communism/fascism being "equals" to democracy, which just give a slightly different hand of cards.

 

[Arent11]

Under Sejong several other inventions were made. The rain gauge. A phonetics system and a written language derived from it. Refined versions of the sun clock, water clock, astronomy tools, palace instruments, arrows and weaponized rocketry (Hwacha in Civ6 and Civ5)
Yes, all of these are credited to Sejong.

Yes, yes, of course you're right. But compare those peanuts to the invention of electricity, railroads, factories, rifles, planes, automobiles, real refrigerators, televisison, computers... you get the drift.

 

[Morningcalm]

Depends on which historical period we're talking about. With Sejong, Korea was one of the leading countries in Science, mostly due to Sejong's personal obsession with Science (and Culture, and Politics, and giving worthy people a high office).

Later on during 1592 war against Japan, Koreans were clearly behind to Japanese innovation. Later on in the 19th Century, traditionalist people still didn't want to modernize the kingdom. They didn't even try to not lag behind. That resulted to Japan annexing Korea into their empire in 1910, the former very passionate about their modernization (Meiji Restoration, their Civ6 Civ ability bears its namesake). Very shameful period in Korean history.

Korean cannon technology and military technology at large was way ahead of Japan's in the 1592 and the late reply Hideyoshi invasions (the Imjin Wars). It is why Koreans holed up in a fortress and outnumbered (approximately 2000 Koreans to 30,000 Japanese soldiers) were able to defeat samurai. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haengju

It's also partly how Admiral Yi Sunshin was always able to win all his battles at sea with the Japanese (it wasn't all due to his innovative turtle ship design). Koreans at sea favored ranged bombardment and tough stocky panokson ships (and a few turtle ships) against the Japanese. Hwachas were used on panokson as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha

Military innovation was high in the Imjin Wars even if Korean warriors on land didn't fight as well as trained veteran samurai.

As far as Japanese innovation, perhaps we are forgetting that this came about only after Westerners under Perry forcibly opened Japan's ports to foreign trade?

Yes, yes, of course you're right. But compare those peanuts to the invention of electricity, railroads, factories, rifles, planes, automobiles, real refrigerators, televisison, computers... you get the drift.

In Sejong's time such were hardly peanuts and had clear impact on commoners, as well as the military advancement of the Choson state. If you expect a medieval leader to invent electricity, railroads, factories, rifles, planes, automobiles, "real" refrigerators, television or computers, I would wonder if any leader before the 15th century would merit any science bonuses at all.

But then again, there's medieval leader Robert the Bruce with 18th century Scottish Enlightenment bonuses from the beginnings of the game.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Yes, yes, of course you're right. But compare those peanuts to the invention of electricity, railroads, factories, rifles, planes, automobiles, real refrigerators, televisison, computers... you get the drift.

Pretty much all Technologies have been developed by individuals or compaines. I don't think Korea will be that strong if you can play a civilization game with exact historical approch with civilization rules.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Yes, yes, of course you're right. But compare those peanuts to the invention of electricity, railroads, factories, rifles, planes, automobiles, real refrigerators, televisison, computers... you get the drift.

Sejong's reign was 1418-1450. At the time it was some groundbreaking inventions. The rain gauge predates the Western one by centuries. His phonetic system through independent research, manages to be very close to the Western system in the sense that both systems use five categories to classify consonants. (or something like that, not sure) Hangul consonants are based on how the vocal system looks like when it tries to do particular sounds, so it's based on body dissection data. Roughly in the same period dissection of human bodies just started in Renaissance Europe.

And I already wrote about how in the 19th Century traditionalist idiots refused to modernize. Not all intellectuals were in that camp but... what happened later was a disaster for Koreans.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

And I already wrote about how in the 19th Century traditionalist idiots refused to modernize. Not all intellectuals were in that camp but... what happened later was a disaster for Koreans.

What is good for the country is not Always good for the individual.

The assembly line may be good for mass production but I have Heard that ford had trouble to keep people employed because of how boring it was.

 

[Eric Guimarães]

Although Korea hasn't invented Industrialization and Electricity,It wouldn't be fair to exclude them from the science civs considering their history,culture and size...And yeah,I think some other civs like Japan and England should also receive a trait related to science...

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Although Korea hasn't invented Industrialization and Electricity,It wouldn't be fair to exclude them from the science civs considering their history,culture and size...And yeah,I think some other civs like Japan and England should also receive a trait related to science...

Worth to mention that Europé was aware of mass production techniques atleast as early as the Venetian arsenal, perhaps even earlier. Just took a long time to develop the steam Engines, Maybe because of metallurgy and social development? Steam Power have been known for a long time, you just need to boil water to see the Power of steam.

Medieval europé was not a backwards Place, that is just a myth developed as that "backwards place" developed stuff such as factories in just a few centuries. 1000 ad to 1800 ad is just 800 years and alot of technological developed had to happen which took time.