1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Why is Korea, of all civs, constantly portrayed as super science civ in civ series?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Feb 17, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    486
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Korean military technology was ahead of Japan's in 1592! Makes sense, that's why Koreans knew the importance of... guns?
    Japan adopted guns from European traders in the midst of the chaos of Sengoku Jidai. Did Koreans field trained gunners when the invasion took place? No. There was hardly any communication with the Westerners.
    And in the 19th Century Japan voluntarily modernized itself. Unjust trade relations were imposed by the Americans but the modernization was something they chose. They have sent students to tour Europe to learn more from them. The entire point of Meiji Restoration was to be on the same level with the West.
    What happened with the Korean conflict against the French and Americans around the same period? No communication with the West. Under any circumstances.
    Modernization? Did the opposite of it.
     
  2. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,505
    Location:
    Toronto
    I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that in order to make civs unique, they like to give historical bonuses. Like, if they want to be "realistic", the US' bonus should be something like "double science in the modern era and later" or something like that, because the US really is leading the world in so many aspects of research.

    But since they don't really want to make them too crazy, they instead give them an "interesting" bonus in the legacy bonuses. Same for civs like England or Japan, where they would rather give them an interesting historical bonus as opposed to simply a (modern) bonus to science.

    Korea, they basically choose their "interesting historical" bonus as science-related. Yeah, I think they kind of went a little far, if only because science really is the king in Civ, that even a small bonus can really snowball. Maybe the Seowon would be better balanced if its bonus was +2 early on, and then there was something else needed later to get it a bigger bonus (maybe instead of the current bonus, it simply had no adjacency from other districts, but was a flat +2 science early, with an extra +1 for each building in the Seowon?)
     
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,654
    Science don't matter if the enemy rush with 10 swords and quickly cripple you.
     
  4. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,100
    Location:
    Abroad
    Sure, the Japanese had arquebusiers, but also had more frequent contact with European traders who gave them such. And Korea still blew the Japanese up at sea because the Japanese lacked advanced cannons or shipbuilding.

    19th century Japan voluntarily modernized after involuntarily encountering a massive Western force. Perry gave numerous signs of his superior military tech before Japan consented to opening itself to trade. So this was a clear example of Japan not modernizing itself except by force. That Korea made the same mistake later doesn't help your point--I was contesting your argument that Korea was not advanced in 1592, and also pointing out the origins of the Meiji Restoration and its modernization stemmed from Japanese people earlier failing to allow the very trade which gave them arquebuses in earlier centuries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration (Scroll down to "Foreign Influences")
     
  5. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,293
    Location:
    England
    It's fairly uncontroversial to say that Oxford lags Cambridge in science.
     
  6. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,654
    England is a strong science civ if you play it as it is ment to play;)
     
    Meluhhan likes this.
  7. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,288
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Though not as much lately. Europe and Japan have done a lot of catching up. Things like CERN in Europe, though that doesn't have much practical application, it still is raw science. A lot of our science is really just tech, with some of it having dubious actual value (I'm looking at you Facebook and Twitter). And still Japan has been doing some more amazing things in tech with things like LED's. Still, our medical tech is pretty impressive.
     
  8. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    486
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    I don't fully understand what you wrote, but I will clarify what I was trying to say. I was pointing out that there was a reluctance to explore and communicate with the outside world in Korea, something that didn't exist in Japan. Attitudes that resonated through 19th Century military encounters.

    Rangaku (Western studies) was a very well established field in Japan well before the Meiji Restoration. On the other hand, there's an essay Jung Yakyong wrote about Korean refusal to adopt simple inventions like wheelbarrows to "keep to traditions".

    I didn't say that Koreans weren't advanced by 1592, I was just saying that the Japanese were more advanced, as they boldly adopted a foreign technology that challenged their older ways of honor. If Koreans had the vigilance they would do something to catch up in the arms race, like going to China or even Japan where the trade was still taking place and importing the same weapon. Instead they completely underestimated firearms and suffered heavy defeat after another.

    In the 19th C, Japan modernized itself after going through defeat. Koreans on the other hand... a lot of infighting on the issue. Even when they went through two defeats modernization was not an obvious option for them. It made the difference between the conqueror and the conquered.
     
    Virdrago and Thormodr like this.
  9. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    There are some Korean historians that believe that Korea had a legendary past. Perhaps Firaxis borrowed heavily from them?



    If the Hwan Empire controlled Japan, China, Mongolia, the Khmer, India, Sumeria, Persia, Rome, Greece, France, Spain and parts of Germany and England, it might explain Korea being depicted as a scientific powerhouse. :D
     
    GlobalTree, BenZL43 and halfhalfharp like this.
  10. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,100
    Location:
    Abroad
    What I'm pointing out is clear. Japan exhibited every sign of reluctance to open itself to Western influence via trade because of fears it would taint its culture. Hence Perry using military force to open Japan to trade (notably a number of Japanese military vessels sent to him didn't thwart him). The Meiji Restoration began in that environment of Japanese mistrust after the Japanese realized how technologically superior the West was. But it took military force for them to realize that. I don't contest that Korea had similar issues given their suspicion of Westerners and desire to keep to old ways--it's why Christian Koreans were persecuted by various Korean governments, for example, and why after many years Korean governments were not as vigilant with their navy, or as innovative in that regard.

    Japan was clearly not more advanced than Korea in 1592. As I pointed out, their inability to use or properly adopt cannons in naval warfare hurt them, as did their over-reliance on samurai in land combat against hwachas. Admiral Yi Sunshin was thus able to cut samurai on Korean soil from their supplies and ultimately force them to withdraw.

    Re: the arms race, Korea stole the secret of gunpowder from China precisely because they thought it valuable. Their early weaponization of gunpowder is a clear example of trying to keep up in the arms race. And exemplified in the hwacha, which is so often Korea's unique unit in Civ. That Korea wasn't always good at that later is hardly unique to Korea. Rome also fell due to lax military capabilities.

    It's pretty ridiculous to think Firaxis borrowed from that. Seondeok was a leader of the Silla Golden Age, cared a lot about scientific advancement and education, and that's why she gets science bonuses. :D right back at ya.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  11. Arent11

    Arent11 King

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2016
    Messages:
    988
    Well, conflict was always a fuel for scientific advancement. Would make a great dark age policy: 100% science bonus & unrest in all your cities.
     
  12. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,903
    Location:
    Poland
    That map displays the total number of publications made ACROSS THE PERIOD OF TEN YEARS between 1999 and 2009, with acknowledgement of 2011. So, this map extremely underestimates current scientific output of countries that were quickly rising in science over the last 20 years

    For us to see what are top countries at science right now we need to know the number of publications PUBLISHED IN ONE YEAR, ideally 2017.

    There is no data for 2017 yet, unforutnately, but we actually have the ranking of top countries by number of publications from the year 2016:

    http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?year=2016


    Top 20:
    Spoiler :

    1) United States 601990
    2) China 471472
    3) United Kingdom 182849
    4) Germany 164242
    5) India 138986
    6) Japan 121262
    7) France 112796
    8) Italy 105847
    9) Canada 96928
    10) Australia 89767

    11) Spain 85560
    12) South Korea 78660
    13) Russia 73207
    14) Brazil 68908
    15) Netherlands 55520
    16) Iran 49572
    17) Turkey 44173
    18) Switzerland 43031
    19) Poland 42555
    20) Sweden 38702


    By the way, interesting fact unrelated to the thread; Iran is the fastest developing country in science in the period 1996-2016. In USA the amount of scientific publications in 2016 is 70% higher compared with 1996. In Iran it's 2400% higher (24 times). By comparision, even China had growth of "only" 800% over the same period.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
    halfhalfharp and Thormodr like this.
  13. Arent11

    Arent11 King

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2016
    Messages:
    988
    Well, now you need to correct it for population (Sweden has only 8 Million, China has 1 billion) & you have an extremely rough estimate for "civilizations" today. But of course, we're talking about 4000 years development of civilizations & it's a little harder to assess which civ had the biggest impact there.
     
  14. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Are you saying that the mighty Hwan Korean Empire was inferior to tiny little Silla?
     
  15. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Messages:
    517
    That can be misleading. An increase from 1 to 24 is arguably not equivalent to an increase from 100 to 170. But I believe it can be true, for Iran sacrificed almost every other aspects in pursuit of nuclear weapons. Well, Cyrus can be the next candidate of happy Nuking :D

    And does the number of publishing truely reflects the science level in the game? I think it reflects the research level only. Seems that we should calculate literacy (the standard in V) as well to see if a civ is truely excellent un science. But anyway current day Korea should not be the top 3.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
    nzcamel likes this.
  16. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,903
    Location:
    Poland
    You can simply go to the website and compare the number of publications from Iran in 1996 and today, when it is among top 20 countries.

    And it is wrong to limit all this to nukes - you can also sort the rankings based on science discipline and see Iran is in top 20 in almost all major disciplines, such as biology, chemistry, nanotechnology, mathematics, physics... I some of them it comes near top 10, and I believe it will enter top 10 in some areas if it will sustain its growth.

    Iran is emerging as scientific powerhouse, which is very contrasting with its regime and international image. Iranian woman Mirzakhni recently got Fields medal in math, afterwards she died from cancer and was so respected all Iranian regime newspapers posted tributes to her - with her non-hijab male-haircut portraits.

    It is fascinating process for me, really.
    ---------------------------
    What were we talking about? Oh yeah, Korea.

    Can anybody link to some good non wikipedia article on pre-industrial Korean mathematics and such "advanced" sciences in general?
     
  17. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Messages:
    3,838
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    I wouldn't get too hung up on realism.
    For example, Alf is much closer to us in the present day than to approx.
    3500BC when Vikings get their longships in the game.
     
  18. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,100
    Location:
    Abroad
    No. I'm saying the Hwan Empire didn't exist, and that Silla had high output for a small kingdom on the weaker end of the Three Kingdoms. They more than made up for that of course, being the eventual victor and unifying Korea so that you could continue to mock it from your unenlightened perch.

    https://www.ancient.eu/Cheomseongdae/ -> Oldest astronomical observatory in East Asia and likely the center of a science district in Gyeongju which focused on mathematics, astronomy and astrology. Also the name of Seondeok's agenda in Civ VI.

    https://www.ancient.eu/Queen_Seondeok/ -> Seondeok led a Silla kingdom that saw a flourishing of arts and sciences. She invested quite a bit in schools and religious buildings alike.

    Helaine Selin's Encyclopedia of the History of Science, Technology and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures has a whole chapter on Korean science.

    Cambridge University Press published The Hall of Heavenly Records: Korean Astronomical Instruments and Clocks, 1380-1780, by Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-Djen and John S. Major notes early on Sejong's personal scientific interest and the Hall of Worthies he established (Jiphyunjun).

    Stephen Turnbull and Samuel Hawley have fairly thorough tomes on the Imjin Wars and Korea's military technology in that period.

    There are many more but the above is what I found via a 15-minute Google search. Wikipedia itself isn't all bad as long as you did distinguish the sources cited from the statements the sources are used to support. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_inventions_and_discoveries cites R.J. Grant's Battle at Sea: 3,000 Years of Naval Warfare for a point about the hwacha, for example, and the book may well discuss the hwacha, but it isn't available for view in Google books to my knowledge (many of the books mentioned above are).
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  19. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Many Korean historians do think that the Hwan Empire and their findings and publications have appeared on major Korean TV stations and newspapers. *Shrug*

    As to the part I have bonded, this is incorrect and completely misleading. It is the oldest “surviving” observatory in East Asia. It’s claim to fame is that it hasn’t been toppled by an earthquake yet, essentially.

    Here is a link for what the Chinese were doing in regards to astronomy well before this Observatory was constructed:

    http://idp.bl.uk/4DCGI/education/astronomy/history.html

    A few snippets:

    In May 2005, some relics of this early astronomical activity were uncovered with the discovery of the oldest astronomical observatory known in China today. This structure is located in the Shanxi 山西 province of China and dates from the Longshan 龙山 period (2300–1900 BC). This vast carved platform, measuring sixty metres in diameter, was used to locate the rising of the sun at the different periods of the year.

    Unlike any other country, China is the only place where astronomical observations took place uninterrupted for 4000 years and this surveillance led to many important astronomical discoveries. Special care was taken in China to record the appearance of unexpected events in the sky, such as eclipses, comets or star explosions. The most ancient document known to exist on comets is a spectacular drawing, now called the Silk Atlas of Comets that was found in a tomb from the Mawangdui site near Changsha, in Hunan province, south China in 1973. The Atlas dates from around 185 BC, and is now held at the Hunan Provincial Museum. It depicts a variety of comet formations that demonstrate careful observations made over several centuries earlier, including astronomical phenomena such as ‘cloud vapour divinations’ and ‘star divinations’ which would have aided the prediction of victory or defeat in battle. Different kinds of comet heads and tails are painted on the manuscript, showing that comet observation at this time was already very precise, and done according to scientific classification.
     
  20. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,937
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan, USA
    You guys are forgetting the chief reason:

    Because that's how they are ALWAYS portrayed in Civilization.

    Imagine if in Civ7 Gandhi was actually a pacifist, nonviolent ruler that didn't have a passion for nuclear weapons?

    Sometimes the answer is a lot more simple than a detailed cultural argument and is just, "because that's how it's done and our customers would get weirded out if we did it differently". Imagine if McDonald's suddenly stopped salting their fries, but offered salt packets to customers that asked for them. Technically, nothing changed, but customers would be horrified.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page