Humakty
Happy Goblin
5000 years ago, isn't that about when they landed on the moon ?
Why is Mongolia in and not Korea
- Thread starter tifa9292
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Never mind that, I've read your post. Korea had already been the best country some 5000 years ago.
when koreas unite in 2020, cheap labor in north + very advanced tech in south = superpower + mony
Humakty
Happy Goblin
And bitter social problem ?
nio were all korean so its good
Wuzetian
Warlord
please, this is way too off topic. Can we deal with this when Korea actually reunite? If we get the chance to witness that?
Infiltrator
Warlord
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Sorry to be pedantic, but a prediction cannot be fact. Unless of course it's a fact someone has made that prediction.
I just literally spilled my drink over my desk when I read this. Hilarious stuff man!
On topic.. historically, IMO Mongolia was more prominent and influential than Korea. So just between those two countries I'd much sooner put Mongolia out than Korea.
mongolia was prominent for 200 years, korea was almost proment, but i admit but as promient as mongolia, for 5000 years + the future
Licinia Eudoxia
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A lot of South Korea has a serious 'spousal abuse' problem, it's really awkward to see, but I understand it.
There's a lot of desire to unite with North Korea because "we are all Koreans," enough of a desire that some will ignore offenses and abuses of North Korea, and even defend North Korea from criticism. There's a lot of "you don't understand him like I do," and "we really love each other, really" so on.
The desire for peace, and the fear of war, are good things, but there has to be a limit where people stop tolerating abuses.
It's a very well studied topic, and a pretty interesting phenomenon. A lot of great books and essays on it out there if you look.
It'll be really interesting to see where the DPRK goes when KJI passes away.
There's a lot of desire to unite with North Korea because "we are all Koreans," enough of a desire that some will ignore offenses and abuses of North Korea, and even defend North Korea from criticism. There's a lot of "you don't understand him like I do," and "we really love each other, really" so on.
The desire for peace, and the fear of war, are good things, but there has to be a limit where people stop tolerating abuses.
It's a very well studied topic, and a pretty interesting phenomenon. A lot of great books and essays on it out there if you look.
It'll be really interesting to see where the DPRK goes when KJI passes away.
Wuzetian
Warlord
I just literally spilled my drink over my desk when I read this. Hilarious stuff man!
What is so hilarious about that? I think usi made a point.
Can we please keep civil with each other? Let's not get this thread locked.
It is amusing and sad at the same time to see what some of the Korean poster have written in this thread. It simply confirmed what some of my Chinese friend and even Japanese(I know the animosity between Korean and Japanese so I tend to discount Japanese opinion about Koreans) friend have told me.
If you want to promote Korea, I suggest you do it based on facts, claiming various things that were not Korean invention, discovery, etc. really do not do you any favors if you are trying to win over the heart and mind of non-Korean. It simply confirmed some of the complaints about Korean.
Degrading other civilization and culture will turn people of that culture/civilization defensive and rather than winning friends, you probably won more arguments and even worse impression/view of your side.
I like Korean food and it was interesting when I went to some Korean restaurants in Los Angeles with my Korean born friends (who came here during college or graduate school to study/work, etc.) we might get more exotic kimchee. My understanding of Korea is mostly through friends and books from library (lately, online as well but I am wary as people can post anything they want on the internet then link it as "truth and facts" when it is simply made up stories.) and I tried to learn Korean to order some food in restaurants, etc.
If you want Korea to be a civilization, perhaps consider download the SDK pack and make a mod out of it, it's probably the quickest way. Arguing why there's Mongolian but no Korean and put down others really will not win you favors in my humble opinion.
I do not have the chance, but I talked to people who have lived or traveled in NE part of China, close to North Korea border. You might want to talk to some of them and ask them what life might be like in North Korea. It's not pleasant, otherwise there won't be rampant smuggling along the China & North Korea border as well as many north Koreans living in China.
For those South Koreans who wants to project a better image of Korea, you might want to refrain from using unconfirmed facts as "truth". Also, north Korea government does not sit idle, as evident during recent south korean ship sunk by north korean (yes yes, north korea said they didn't do it but gimme a break) and north korean goes into action and spread all kinds of information about the incident and even dragged USA into it. Also, this year's north korean soccer/football squad had a Japanese born Korean who chose to join the north korean team, rather than south korean team, why? I've read some interesting stories about that, he claimed he felt north korea is more true "korea" or something like that.
In closing, can we be more civil with each other? Can we please use confirmed facts? For example, Chinese character existed 3000 years ago (don't quote me on precise date because I just made up the 3000 number) because we have dug up oracle bones with Chinese characters in it, proving the existence of Chinese character, etc.
If I cite/say something, such as Mongolian promoted trade, etc. I tried to do it based on more scholarly work, work that has been verified so to speak. I'm glad some others have confirmed what I have said in this thread in the later page. Confucianism does not like merchants. Of the Confucian 4 class social hierchy, Mandarin > farmer > labor/craftsman > merchants. Merchants are parasites of society, this is sharp contrast with the English where some argued England is a nation of small shopkeepers.
The current site, Beijing has been designated as "capital" for a long time. Mongols revived it but I do not think Mongols built the forbidden palace per se. As far as I know, Beijing was close to the border with Barbarian so various rulers in Chinese history chose that site as a place to project power partly to check the Barbarian invasion. Current forbidden palace was built more or less by the Ming dynasty and when the Manchu took over China, they added to it.
If the Mongols built forbidden palace, it was likely destroyed after the Ming overthrew the Yuan dynasty. The Mongol depopulated a lot of Chinese population, even went as far as choosing the top 4 most popular surname + 1 surname that was connected with the Sung imperial family and murder them all, some scholar estimate those 5 surnames comprised about 20% of Chinese population (not as bad as Korean, if you choose Kim, Lee, Park, you cover a much larger % of Korean population). When Ming took over, initial capital was not in Beijing, because it was pretty devastated, Ming chose its capital in Nanjing. It was not until the 3rd Ming emperor, who overthew the 2nd emperor (his own nephew) that the capital was moved north to Beijing, where the 3rd emperor was governing when he was guarding the northern frontier against the Mongol as the son of the 1st Ming emperor. I may have to double check some of these but I no longer have access to some of those books where I used to read.
I want to make one comment on USA "smartest scientists, etc." My own experience is limited but I did graduate school study in USA and in Europe. USA does not have a monopoly on the best high level education in the world but overall, USA graduate schools are still the best, relatively speaking. I have met and hung around with graduates from say Seoul University, Yinhwa (spelling? it means pear flower in Korean if I recall correctly) Tokyo U, Waseda, Keio, Kyoto, Oxford, Beijing, Fudan, National Taiwan U, Chinghwa (both China & Taiwan), the list goes on and on. I love to meet people from other countries and tried to learn from them. I read a lot about Turkey & Kurds so I was delighted a few years ago to have met some Turkish Kurds students and tried to learn from them what it was really like between Turkey and Kurds, etc.
Based on my own experience and talking with students from various countries as well as my own experience study "abroad", I think USA graduate school is probably the best in the world still, I cannot say the same about undergraduate study as USA students need to catch up a lot to foreign students. By the time we hit graduate school, we are still a bit behind but quickly catch up.
Nobel prize is simply one indicator, graduate school is another. If USA continue to be an attractive place to live and work, it'll continue to attract good talents all over the world, making our graduate school the best in the world. If USA does not, people will not come. I remember there used to be a lot more Japanese & Korean students in USA, not anymore, especially after east Asia's economy took off and some students decided to remain in their home country or went back to start business in their home country.
It is amusing and sad at the same time to see what some of the Korean poster have written in this thread. It simply confirmed what some of my Chinese friend and even Japanese(I know the animosity between Korean and Japanese so I tend to discount Japanese opinion about Koreans) friend have told me.
If you want to promote Korea, I suggest you do it based on facts, claiming various things that were not Korean invention, discovery, etc. really do not do you any favors if you are trying to win over the heart and mind of non-Korean. It simply confirmed some of the complaints about Korean.
Degrading other civilization and culture will turn people of that culture/civilization defensive and rather than winning friends, you probably won more arguments and even worse impression/view of your side.
I like Korean food and it was interesting when I went to some Korean restaurants in Los Angeles with my Korean born friends (who came here during college or graduate school to study/work, etc.) we might get more exotic kimchee. My understanding of Korea is mostly through friends and books from library (lately, online as well but I am wary as people can post anything they want on the internet then link it as "truth and facts" when it is simply made up stories.) and I tried to learn Korean to order some food in restaurants, etc.
If you want Korea to be a civilization, perhaps consider download the SDK pack and make a mod out of it, it's probably the quickest way. Arguing why there's Mongolian but no Korean and put down others really will not win you favors in my humble opinion.
I do not have the chance, but I talked to people who have lived or traveled in NE part of China, close to North Korea border. You might want to talk to some of them and ask them what life might be like in North Korea. It's not pleasant, otherwise there won't be rampant smuggling along the China & North Korea border as well as many north Koreans living in China.
For those South Koreans who wants to project a better image of Korea, you might want to refrain from using unconfirmed facts as "truth". Also, north Korea government does not sit idle, as evident during recent south korean ship sunk by north korean (yes yes, north korea said they didn't do it but gimme a break) and north korean goes into action and spread all kinds of information about the incident and even dragged USA into it. Also, this year's north korean soccer/football squad had a Japanese born Korean who chose to join the north korean team, rather than south korean team, why? I've read some interesting stories about that, he claimed he felt north korea is more true "korea" or something like that.
In closing, can we be more civil with each other? Can we please use confirmed facts? For example, Chinese character existed 3000 years ago (don't quote me on precise date because I just made up the 3000 number) because we have dug up oracle bones with Chinese characters in it, proving the existence of Chinese character, etc.
If I cite/say something, such as Mongolian promoted trade, etc. I tried to do it based on more scholarly work, work that has been verified so to speak. I'm glad some others have confirmed what I have said in this thread in the later page. Confucianism does not like merchants. Of the Confucian 4 class social hierchy, Mandarin > farmer > labor/craftsman > merchants. Merchants are parasites of society, this is sharp contrast with the English where some argued England is a nation of small shopkeepers.
The current site, Beijing has been designated as "capital" for a long time. Mongols revived it but I do not think Mongols built the forbidden palace per se. As far as I know, Beijing was close to the border with Barbarian so various rulers in Chinese history chose that site as a place to project power partly to check the Barbarian invasion. Current forbidden palace was built more or less by the Ming dynasty and when the Manchu took over China, they added to it.
If the Mongols built forbidden palace, it was likely destroyed after the Ming overthrew the Yuan dynasty. The Mongol depopulated a lot of Chinese population, even went as far as choosing the top 4 most popular surname + 1 surname that was connected with the Sung imperial family and murder them all, some scholar estimate those 5 surnames comprised about 20% of Chinese population (not as bad as Korean, if you choose Kim, Lee, Park, you cover a much larger % of Korean population). When Ming took over, initial capital was not in Beijing, because it was pretty devastated, Ming chose its capital in Nanjing. It was not until the 3rd Ming emperor, who overthew the 2nd emperor (his own nephew) that the capital was moved north to Beijing, where the 3rd emperor was governing when he was guarding the northern frontier against the Mongol as the son of the 1st Ming emperor. I may have to double check some of these but I no longer have access to some of those books where I used to read.
I want to make one comment on USA "smartest scientists, etc." My own experience is limited but I did graduate school study in USA and in Europe. USA does not have a monopoly on the best high level education in the world but overall, USA graduate schools are still the best, relatively speaking. I have met and hung around with graduates from say Seoul University, Yinhwa (spelling? it means pear flower in Korean if I recall correctly) Tokyo U, Waseda, Keio, Kyoto, Oxford, Beijing, Fudan, National Taiwan U, Chinghwa (both China & Taiwan), the list goes on and on. I love to meet people from other countries and tried to learn from them. I read a lot about Turkey & Kurds so I was delighted a few years ago to have met some Turkish Kurds students and tried to learn from them what it was really like between Turkey and Kurds, etc.
Based on my own experience and talking with students from various countries as well as my own experience study "abroad", I think USA graduate school is probably the best in the world still, I cannot say the same about undergraduate study as USA students need to catch up a lot to foreign students. By the time we hit graduate school, we are still a bit behind but quickly catch up.
Nobel prize is simply one indicator, graduate school is another. If USA continue to be an attractive place to live and work, it'll continue to attract good talents all over the world, making our graduate school the best in the world. If USA does not, people will not come. I remember there used to be a lot more Japanese & Korean students in USA, not anymore, especially after east Asia's economy took off and some students decided to remain in their home country or went back to start business in their home country.
usi
Shogun
LOL! I didn't know that.
I am now interested in playing "Nationalistically Correct" mod, where each civ is made by nationalists.
MisterBarca
Prince
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Why bother to reply to the original poster when he is obviously either a troll or a hyper-nationalist ignoramus unworthy of serious engagement? (And I say this as a Korean national!)
Anyways, while it's impossible to correct all the mis-information circulating around on this thread, I would like to address one particularly mistaken view continuously intoned even by earnest, intelligent people here and elsewhere on Japan's historic role in East Asia. To be succinct, there is a common error in the West that assumes that Japan was an East Asian colossus comparable to China throughout most of its existence. This is unqualifiedly false. First, Japan was either weak or isolationist most of its pre-modern history and hence was not a major geopolitical player most of its history. In fact, it was a major geopolitical player only for a single decade prior to the late 19th century: During Hideyoshi's reign in the 1590s when it tried to conquer Korea after the Imjin War and failed due against the combined might of Ming-Choseon forces. Second, culturally and technologically it was arguably less advanced than Korea until at least its embrace of Western science around Hideyoshi's time. In fact, as some of you have pointed out, Japan was actually the recipient of Korean culture (which was in turn the recipient of Chinese culture) until around Hideyoshi's time.
All this is to underscore the fact that the rise of Japan as a major East Asian power/civilization is entirely a modern phenomenon and even a contemporary phenomenon.
Moderator Action: Don't insult another poster. Either report them, or ignore them.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Anyways, while it's impossible to correct all the mis-information circulating around on this thread, I would like to address one particularly mistaken view continuously intoned even by earnest, intelligent people here and elsewhere on Japan's historic role in East Asia. To be succinct, there is a common error in the West that assumes that Japan was an East Asian colossus comparable to China throughout most of its existence. This is unqualifiedly false. First, Japan was either weak or isolationist most of its pre-modern history and hence was not a major geopolitical player most of its history. In fact, it was a major geopolitical player only for a single decade prior to the late 19th century: During Hideyoshi's reign in the 1590s when it tried to conquer Korea after the Imjin War and failed due against the combined might of Ming-Choseon forces. Second, culturally and technologically it was arguably less advanced than Korea until at least its embrace of Western science around Hideyoshi's time. In fact, as some of you have pointed out, Japan was actually the recipient of Korean culture (which was in turn the recipient of Chinese culture) until around Hideyoshi's time.
All this is to underscore the fact that the rise of Japan as a major East Asian power/civilization is entirely a modern phenomenon and even a contemporary phenomenon.
Moderator Action: Don't insult another poster. Either report them, or ignore them.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
sorry if i offnded any mongolians i am a korean and i just think korea shuld be in civ v before some others
sorry
Licinia Eudoxia
Empress
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Actually, this is a pretty interesting thing I'd read about. In Japan, there is a fairly small population of North Korean expatriates and their families. They attend 'North Korean' schools in Japan which are specially designated by the government for special curriculum and so on under the notion that they're a protected culture, thus granted a unique legal status.
For a Westerner, a good analogue would be Native American communities and schools in the United States, at least from a legal perspective.
There was a flap recently where one party in Japan was trying to remove government funding from these North Korean schools, because the schools don't teach the same curriculum that Japanese schools do, and so shouldn't be considered public schools.
So there is a minority in Japan of North Korean expatriates and supporters, and while I don't remember that football player's back story, I suspected he might be from such a family.
usi
Shogun
And, uh.., source?
If you need, I can provide you with a lot more evidence than Seoul in 1750 AD was smaller than Kyoto in 775 AD...
From a Wall Street journal article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704340304574635180086832934.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Licinia Eudoxia
Empress
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I absolutely agree, and again, this is an issue of perspective. What you say is absolutely true, and the West does have a very skewed view on East Asia, but it's understandable.
I will say the problem of over-emphasis on Japan is worse in America, but there's some good reasons for that:
1) Unlike Britain and France and some other European nations, America never had the historical involvement with China and Indochina and so on.
2) The American public's first footsteps into East Asia in the 20th century, mostly, was with World War 2. Obviously, at the time, Japan was a rising military power. If you are the American public and becoming familiar with East Asia in the 1940s, then Japan obviously looks like the most important player on stage.
3) The American public's other experiences with East Asia in the 20th century were largely the Korean War, which is, in America, often referred to as 'the Forgotten War' because it has for a number of reasons, faded far into the background of history, and never had a dramatic impact on the domestic population.
4) And then the Vietnam war. The Vietnam War was supremely traumatizing for America, and was both the source of, and fuel for, a lot of civil unrest and social upheaval in America. The draft at the time, and the public dissatisfaction, sort of mixed in with a lot of turmoil involving black civil rights, women's rights, 60s and 70s counter-culture, and so on. The view of Vietnam was as a savage, uncivilized, messy conflict, a jungle full of alien enemies who we couldn't understand, a place where young American soldiers went to die. Obviously, we would want to forget that.
5) And finally, and most importantly maybe, the Cold War. China, as a communist government, was a foe, and for propaganda purposes, China in much of the West, for a long time, was portrayed as a barbaric, dirty, oppressive stepchild of the Soviet Union. North Korea, Vietnam, and so on were also given similar treatments.
6) As a minor note, Japan and America also had some healthy cultural exchange in the 20th century. Baseball, even before World War 2, was rising in popularity in Japan, and in the early 1900s, there was nothing in America bigger than baseball. Also, while there were kung fu and Hong Kong films that came to America, samurai movies like the work of Akira Kurosawa and such were very popular in the United States, and melded well with cowboy movies and Spaghetti westerns. By comparison, China actively discouraged baseball, and it took a long time for China to begin 'exporting culture' in the 20th century.
So part of the United States' popular views on East Asia, just like most every country's view of most issues, has more to do with America than with East Asia. We defeated Japan in very dramatic and shocking fashion, that while horrifying, was also an affirmation of our supremacy and proved our unquestionable victory. Therefore, we are comfortable with elevating Japan's status. The greater we portray Japan, then the greater we see ourselves for having defeated Japan.
By comparison, for a long time, we were still in conflict with most of mainland East Asia, and needed to portray them as weaker or inferior to assure ourselves that things would be alright.
I realize this is a long post of rambling, but I think the exaggeration of Japanese importance amongst the West is a pretty interesting thing.
I am not saying that Korea was better than Japan or anything, but mostly that part of Japan's 'greatness' was that it was isolated, and solitary and able to proclaim it's greatness to itself.
Mainland East Asia's history was not terribly influenced by Japan, and certainly not dominated by it.
Do you have a link for that? I severely doubt that could be true.
Never mind that, I've read your post. Korea had already been the best country some 5000 years ago.
He is selling his country short. It's over 10,000 years of history.
They had the largest empire ever known to mankind. Truly a glorious past.
Plus they are responsible for over half of the current Civs in the game.
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