Why is Mongolia in and not Korea

[Thoughtful Thug]

I am very suprised Spain is not in the game though.

Oh you will get Spain eventually. uh um ... that will be 5 dollars please!

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

I have the perception that there is an inferiority complex with Koreans, esp. being sandwiched between two superpowers: China and Japan. I liked having Koreans in Civ4, they were an easy target to destroy.

It's not particularly Koreans, but a lot of the East Asian countries have very long histories with lots of tensions with their neighbors. Anywhere you see that, you get a similar result. It leads to a lot of nationalism and a lot of stereotyping of neigbors. Virtually all East Asian countries have very strong stereotypes of their neighbors that go beyond the "Americans stereotype Canadians as maple syrup-loving, moose-riding hockey-playing lumberjacks."

It isn't so much about an inferiority complex as much as it is a drawn out, abstract fear. Not an actual fear that one person might feel when being scared of something, but there is a sort of political fear.

The best, most obvious example of this is the case of India and Pakistan, where so much of Pakistan's history and politics is shaped by fear of India, worrying about India, and a general preoccupation with India. There are a lot of reasons for the societal unrest in Pakistan, but among them is the fact that there is very little cohesion and a noticeable dearth of a positive national identity.

 

[SheerTerroir]

Mongols were extraordinarily influential not only to the history of Asia but also Europe.

Above all, when the Mongols invaded Europe (Russia, then Hungary) they also secured the great Silk Trading Road. This prompted the Venetians to ally with the Mongols to develop the Eastern trade and ultimately led Marco Polo on his famous journey and chronicles. As a civilization, the Mongols were highly meritocratic with generals and market-makers drawn from all classes. This combination of meritocracy and trade secured by military force would influence Europe greatly and ultimately set the table for the chivalric origins of the Renaissance.

You can read more here from a Berkeley professor.

Sheer

 

[Buccaneer]

Licinia, that is a good post. I would assume that we see more of the Korean nationalism and jingoism on the internet (and in real life) because they are well connected and tech savvy, compared to other smaller East Asian nations.

 

[Zenstrive]

I am surprised Majapahit never made it into Civ. It made Korea looks puny in comparison. It made numerous Temples, notably Borobudur (the largest Buddha Temple in the world). It eats Malaysia, Philipines, Papuas, Moluccas, and Timor for breakfast during its heyday. The fact that it never traumatizes the western at some point may be the fact that it has never been considered.

Korea? Copycats. Modern cultures? Copied from Japan. Industrialization? Copied from Japan. Tae Kwon Do? Probably adapted from Wushu.

 

[logintime]

I am surprised Majapahit never made it into Civ. It made Korea looks puny in comparison.

I'm surprised Srivijaya hasn't been considered either. It's not exactly well known among Westerners, but it and Majapahit are basically the two basis's of Indonesian identity. And they were both influential maritime powers and trading civilizations.

 

[Stefanskantine]

There are a lot of academic historians who argue that the Mongols are largely responsible for the the way the world looks today. An obvious one is finally destroying large eastern empires like Persia. Also some have claimed that they inadvertently brought plague rats with them in their conquests, and we know how the plague reshaped Europe.

Anyway, the Korean uniques, when they make it in, should be:

UA: Education Fever: libraries, universities, hagwon produce 2x beakers, cost 2x upkeep
UB: hagwon: replaces public school. (not sure how to balance ability, but should produce extra beakers or maybe a free scientist specialist)

 

[pagh80]

but a lot of the East Asian countries have very long histories with lots of tensions with their neighbors.

There is nothing special about that. Look anywhere in the world and you will see countless of wars among neighbours throughout history.
I think denmark have had atleast 10 wars with sweden sofar, as one example.

UB: hagwon: replaces public school. (not sure how to balance ability, but should produce extra beakers or maybe a free scientist specialist)

hmm or maybe:
UB: Starcraft Playhall: Replaces Stadium. Gives a extra 2 happiness.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

There is nothing special about that. Look anywhere in the world and you will see countless of wars among neighbours throughout history.
I think denmark have had atleast 10 wars with sweden sofar, as one example.

Every relationship in the world is unique and complex. Still, I feel pretty safe in saying that most European cultural tensions aren't quite as intense as East Asia's currently are.

The modern atmosphere of Europe, and Denmark and Sweden as you mentioned, is very far removed from the sort of thing I'm referring to in East Asia.

 

[Sonereal]

If anything, Europe is lovey-dovey compared to how they use to be. After WW2, Europe seems to want to get-along and put the past behind them. Southeast Asia is far different. Pretty much everyone but Taiwan hate Japan. North Korea is disliked by everyone. It's just so bad.

 

[pagh80]

I didnt know it was that bad in asia nowadays. I know there are big tensions with North Korea but im suprised to hear that japan is soo hated. As for North Korea, then i guess the whole world dislike them.

Personally i see South Korea as the most developed country in asia atm. Atleast from all over here in denmark, South Korea seems to do very well, and is a good place to live.

 

[Sonereal]

I didnt know it was that bad in asia nowadays. I know there are big tensions with North Korea but im suprised to hear that japan is soo hated. As for North Korea, then i guess the whole world dislike them.

Personally i see South Korea as the most developed country in asia atm. Atleast from all over here in denmark, South Korea seems to do very well, and is a good place to live.

Korea is pretty sad these. days. North Korea is a terrible place to live. South Korea is pretty nice but Seoul but if a war ever breaks out, the city would be flatten by NK artillery bombardment pretty quickly.

Japan, after all the stunts it pulled off in Southeast Asia, just isn't liked.

 

[pi-r8]

I'll link to this, since it's relevant and it might interest people here.
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2007/02/korea-japan-relation-saga-part-ii-pre.html

First, about the “making Koreans feel superior” part. Koreans tend to stress that Korea has always been culturally superior to Japan, and to some degree it is true. Since the beginning of time until around 18th century, China was the cultural center of East Asia, and Korea was closer to China than Japan. Therefore, Korea was undoubtedly superior to Japan in such arts as understanding ancient Chinese texts, calligraphy, china-making, etc. that were fashionable in China. Around 5th century, Baekje, one of the three kingdoms that occupied the Korean Peninsula, played a large role in transmitting Chinese characters, pottery, Buddhism, and so on. (Baekje was eventually defeated by Shilla, another one of the three kingdoms, and some Korean scholars argue that the current Japanese monarchy is in fact the lineage of Baekje kings in exile.)

Even past the ancient time, Korea sent masters of those arts to Japan to teach the locals as late as until the 17th century. Lost in this discussion is that Japan was quietly becoming the leading economic power of East Asia, since Japan was more receptive toward accepting goods and ideas from Europe. In fact, the relation between Korea and Japan are similar to the relation between France and Britain as the Industrial Revolution was going on. Britain was certainly getting wealthier, but it still looked to France for haute couture.

 

[logintime]

I didnt know it was that bad in asia nowadays. I know there are big tensions with North Korea but im suprised to hear that japan is soo hated.

Japan did collectively go a little crazy some seventy years ago. It's been a long time since all of that and Japan is a very different nation now, but hard feelings still persist.

Personally i see South Korea as the most developed country in asia atm. Atleast from all over here in denmark, South Korea seems to do very well, and is a good place to live.

South Korea is pretty well off. It and Taiwan are fairly similar in terms of how developed/wealthy they are. Japan and Singapore are still the standard-bearers for the region though.

 

[tifa9292]

pi, i agree with what you wrote

don't forget that the japanese emperors have admitted that their ancestors are korean

 

[logintime]

don't forget that the japanese emperors have admitted that their ancestors are korean

Correction: the current Japanese emperor has said that the queen of one of his ancestors was Korean. Not the entire royal family.

 

[the343danny]

pi, i agree with what you wrote

don't forget that the japanese emperors have admitted that their ancestors are korean

How much do the emperors know about their ancestors tens of hundreds of years ago? It could be true, it may not be. Nor does it matter. The Japanese came from northern Asia and the pacific islands/Korea. And the Koreans came from somewhere else too.

If you claim that is a good argument towards the inclusion of Korea, then we should just throw out all nations and put in the cave peoples of South Africa. Stop being so nationalist.

And good for you, Korea was good at understanding Chinese culture than Japan. Doesnt that argument become null when you realize Chinese culture=all culture? Understanding and adopting Chinese culture makes you less of a cultural power, than anything, but not that it matters, because no nation is culturally "powerful"

And both Koreas arent the best places to live. North Korea obviously, and South Korea could be if the crime rate wasnt so high. Murder rates are second in the industrialized world (after America, which is quite a bad place to live in from personal experience) and rape is off the scales.

 

[Thormodr]

meh sumeria's overrated. dont forget that korea has 5000 years of history

Lol. I lived in South Korea for 6 years and this one still makes me laugh.

First of all, the first mention in history books of anything Korean was of the founding of the kingdom of Shilla in 57 BCE.

So, Koreans have only had a little over 2000 years of recorded history for starters.

The myth about Tangun coming down from heaven and having sex with a bear and then founding the nation of Korea supposedly happened in 2333 BCE. So, even if you believe this foundation myth that still only gives only gives Korea less than 4400 years.

Speaking of "5,000 years of history", here's an amusing story:

One of those phrases that anyone dealing with Korean history must learn to live with is the ’5,000 years’ business. Today I came across one of the most creative uses of this cliche yet from Kim Jong-il’s ‘unofficial spokesman’ Kim Myong Chol (crazy guy, not very crazy name), who claims that last October’s nuclear test was the fulfilment of a 5,000-year old Korean ambition:

One of the 5,000-year-old aspirations of the Korean people is to acquire powerful national defenses equipped with long-range deep-strike capabilities of hitting the enemy’s heartland and turning it into a sea of fire, instead of letting Korea become a war theater. For the first time in Korean history, Kim Jong-il has fulfilled this historic aspiration as he has put the Korean Peninsula under North Korea’s own nuclear umbrella, neutralizing the US nuclear umbrella.

I can just imagine the neolithic people of the peninsula, kicking back around the cave fire, having just feasted on a prime cut of deer meat, saying to one another, “you know what we really need, it’s a great big thermonuclear weapon and a nice ICBM to deliver it with.”

http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2007/01/5000-years/

and the original article:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IA04Dg01.html

 

[tifa9292]

Lol. I lived in South Korea for 6 years and this one still makes me laugh.

First of all, the first mention in history books of anything Korean was of the founding of the kingdom of Shilla in 57 BCE.

So, Koreans have only had a little over 2000 years of recorded history for starters.

The myth about Tangun coming down from heaven and having sex with a bear and then founding the nation of Korea supposedly happened in 2333 BCE. So, even if you believe this foundation myth that still only gives only gives Korea less than 4400 years.

ok maybe it's 4400 but you should read the Samguk Yusa, it's clear that the gojoseon was established in 2333BC
myths are based on history

 

[usi]

One more vote for Mongolia > Korea, though I do love to see Korea becoming a major civ.
Picking Mongolia was just too much...

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I kinda dislike the "Asians hate one another" story. Yeah, I know some Western scholars love to advocate such stories. But you know, that's plainly wrong.

For example, let's see a recent BBC poll (note that it's a PDF file).

Based on the data...

It is wrong to say that Japan is hated by other Asian countries. The only exceptions is China, and that is understandable due to both historical events and brainwashing done by the Chinese government (no flaming here - I can explain the latter if anyone needs).

It is also nonsense to say that China is hated in Asia. Actually China is liked by Asians than by Westerns. Japan, Korea, and India dislike China heavily due to territorial and political disputes. Western countries don't have much of such disputes, but they hate China anyway.

Even North Korea and Pakistan are generally viewed favorably in Asia than in the West. It is rather funny to see that some European countries view Pakistan more negatively than Indians do.

India might be exceptional such that Asians and Westerns agree on their views. Nevertheless, it at least does not support the idea of "Asians hate one another."