Why is Mongolia in and not Korea

[alaric1112]

This. Mongolia shaped history in a way unimaginable in today's context. Much of what we understand as Chinese culture today was dramatically shaped by Mongolia and, later, Manchu influences. Let alone middle-eastern culture, which they dramatically shaped as well.

This is so true the mongols also influenced much of what is now the soviet union they put their stamp on history like no one else!!

 

[UknowsI]

pi, i agree with what you wrote

don't forget that the japanese emperors have admitted that their ancestors are korean

Compared to European royal houses where pretty much everyone are related I don't see the relevance of this.

I think the main reason why Korea isn't added is because they didn't spread their culture much (Except for the Korean wave ) and only really interacted much with China and Japan. While I might be a bit biased on the subject, the other opposite would be the Vikings. They only existed for a brief period of time, they affected the nations around them greatly and had a unique style which might get them included even though they have a 300 years history instead of 5000 years.

When it comes to your civilization, do you mean Taejo of Goguryeo, Taejo of Goryeo or Taejo of Joseon? I guess you mean Wang Kon. Wouldn't it be easier just to go with King Sejong? He seems like the most famous leader at least.

The unique ability makes no sense... Plenty of countries have declared war on Korea.

I would also go for Hagwon or Seowon as the unique building. The Joseon dynasty's focus on Confucianism and studying is one of the most characteristic trait of Korean culture.

While both the hwacha and turtleship makes good unique units they are both a bit of a novelty. Personally I would like the Samsung turret robot I would make it as a completely different kind of unit. While most ranged units in Civ have strong offence and weak defence I would make it as a ranged unit with strong defence and weak range. I think this is the only way to give it the role as a turret in game.

Turret robot: Range 1 Ranged Attack 30, Defence 60 Move 2, 25% bonus against gunpowder units. Available with Robotics

You can read more about it here: http://singularityhub.com/2010/07/2...h-korea-in-demilitarized-zone-on-trial-basis/

 

[Sonereal]

ok maybe it's 4400 but you should read the Samguk Yusa, it's clear that the gojoseon was established in 2333BC
myths are based on history

Unlike the more factually-oriented Samguk Sagi, the Samguk Yusa focuses on various folktales, legends, and biographies from early Korean history. Many of the founding legends of the various kingdoms in Korean history are recorded in the book. Illyeon covered legends from many Korean kingdoms, including Gojoseon, Wiman Joseon, Buyeo, Goguryeo, Baekje, Silla, and Gaya.

Gojosseon at best was a city-state with little real influence beyond the peninsula. So, if you're going to argue for the inclusion of Korea on those grounds, Sumeria deserves to be included even more.

 

[Vordeo]

I am surprised Majapahit never made it into Civ. It made Korea looks puny in comparison. It made numerous Temples, notably Borobudur (the largest Buddha Temple in the world). It eats Malaysia, Philipines, Papuas, Moluccas, and Timor for breakfast during its heyday. The fact that it never traumatizes the western at some point may be the fact that it has never been considered.

To be fair, those are the borders they claimed. It's debatable whether or not they actually had any real control over those territories. Also, they only had a small part of the southern Philippines, at least, certainly not control over the whole area.

I do agree that they're certainly significant enough to be a civ though.

If anything, Europe is lovey-dovey compared to how they use to be. After WW2, Europe seems to want to get-along and put the past behind them. Southeast Asia is far different. Pretty much everyone but Taiwan hate Japan. North Korea is disliked by everyone. It's just so bad.

Think you mean east Asia there. East Asia = China, Japan, Koreas, Taiwan. Southeast Asia = Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.

SE Asian countries generally like each other, with a few exceptions, and that's coming from a Filipino.

Japan, after all the stunts it pulled off in Southeast Asia, just isn't liked.

By the generations who were alive during the war, mostly. Nowadays they're pretty well liked (thanks mostly to economic help and culture), and most SE Asians who aren't ethnic Chinese are more concerned with the Chinese than Japan.

Even that said, relations with China are pretty friendly in general, and the main point of tension is China's somewhat ridiculous claim that the entire South China Sea (which makes up a huuuuge chunk of SE Asia) is somehow their territory.

 

[Sonereal]

This is so true the mongols also influenced much of what is now the soviet union they put their stamp on history like no one else!!

There is no Soviet Union now.

 

[Blitz47]

There is nothing special about that. Look anywhere in the world and you will see countless of wars among neighbours throughout history.
I think denmark have had atleast 10 wars with sweden sofar, as one example.

hmm or maybe:
UB: Starcraft Playhall: Replaces Stadium. Gives a extra 2 happiness.

Well, Denmark, Sweden and Norway all used to be part of the Viking kingdom, Denmark. When Sweden wanted to part ways, they fought, unfortunately for Denmark, Sweden was better in the end and we get to see how Gustavus Adolphus changed renaissance warfare, and how little Sweden managed to war and even won against Moscovite and various German principalities.

Every relationship in the world is unique and complex. Still, I feel pretty safe in saying that most European cultural tensions aren't quite as intense as East Asia's currently are.

The modern atmosphere of Europe, and Denmark and Sweden as you mentioned, is very far removed from the sort of thing I'm referring to in East Asia.

I think one reason is for most of Europe's history, it's feudal monarchy and the European royal houses tend to marry into each other so in the end, essentially the entire European monarchy are all relatives. Asia does not do that in that regard, it's more conquest and/or culture satelites. India was strong under the Gupta dynasty but most of the time, India gained cultural influence with its religion, influenced China which in turn influenced Japan & Korea and spread to Indonesia (until Islam replaced buddism in that region). Asia had 2 super power houses that dominated most of its history, China & India. Japan gained power & influence in the last 100 years but it was mostly China & India's show for the past 2000 or so years in Asia. Smaller nations in that area either become a culture satellite of either one of those 2 civilization or they might be gone. Khmer and Siam had strong Indian influence. China essentially seeped into Burma and controlled Indo-China area for a long time (around Han dynasty if I recall, which is about Roman time).

There's fear and some of it is justified. Europeans fought many long bloody wars where entire population was decimated. 30 years war in Germany killed off probably 1/4 to 1/3 of the population, if not more. Spanish Inquisition was not very kind either. People in Europe have learned to live with each other better, at least that's the impression I got when I studied in Europe and talked to Europeans there and here.

Another thing is Europe is more fluid in terms of influence + power. The Celts, Vikings, Romans, Germanic tribes, the Franks, Hungarian, Poland, Lithuanian, Sweden, Italian, Spaniards, Greeks, Russians, England/UK, Austria-Hungary empire (Hapsburgs), even Holland/Flanders had its own influential times. This is in contrast to Asia where it's mostly evolving around the 2 super power, China & India for the past 2000 years.

Right, I also have started to prefer smaller maps. I don't know how slow it gets for you though and what system you have. The thing is that for me strategic view crashes game after like a minute, so I started to look for solution on web and I found several people complaining about this, apparently there is some issue with frame rates on strategic map. The only solution though was to turn on VSync, which was allready on for me. Also there may be diffrence between DirectX 9 and 10/11, but for me it only fixed issue with how FoW is rendered (i.e. I had black box instead of fog at first)



Now just to stay on topic - I don't think a civilization has to conquare/colonize whole world to be worthy. However some expansion outside their national borders/domination over neighbours or at least scientific or cultural advancement should occur. So I see nothing wrong with having Mezoamerican civs just because they were wiped out by Europeans, when they had very rich culture, fairly well developed science and complex social structure well before European contact. I never ever have heard Korea having large teritory or making notable contributions to world culture or technology. My country has very Euro-centric history education, though. However I would still prefer learning more about Africa and other great civilizations world hasn't heard of rather than modern day Asian countries

When I use normal view on maps bigger than small, I get black areas then slowly turned to gray and other landscape color and you can see the graphics being rendered. My CPU is slower by I think about 0.2 or 0.4 Ghz below the minimum requirement and my graphics card may not be late enough generation. I have enough video memory on my video card (512MB) and enough memory (4GB but only runs on 32-bit Windows so only 3.5GB is used).

 

[Sonereal]

Think you mean east Asia there. East Asia = China, Japan, Koreas, Taiwan. Southeast Asia = Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.

SE Asian countries generally like each other, with a few exceptions, and that's coming from a Filipino.

I thought Southeast Asia included everybody from China to Vietnam.

Oh well. I meant East Asia.

By the generations who were alive during the war, mostly. Nowadays they're pretty well liked (thanks mostly to economic help and culture), and most SE Asians who aren't ethnic Chinese are more concerned with the Chinese than Japan.

Even that said, relations with China are pretty friendly in general, and the main point of tension is China's somewhat ridiculous claim that the entire South China Sea (which makes up a huuuuge chunk of SE Asia) is somehow their territory.

The problem is that its largely the older populations that are in power, isn't it? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong because as far as I know, things like the Rape of Nanking seem like touchy subjects in the region the same way whether or not the Civil War was more about slavery or state rights is in the United States.

Then again, in another ten or twenty years I doubt there will even be animosity.

 

[logintime]

There is no Soviet Union now.

Or is there?

 

[Thormodr]

ok maybe it's 4400 but you should read the Samguk Yusa, it's clear that the gojoseon was established in 2333BC
myths are based on history

Myths are not always based on history.

Anyway, you should be glad to know that some Koreans are now claiming that Korea are over 10,000 years old. Apparently they invented Chinese characters and their civlization, moved to the Indus valley and formed the Indus Valley civilization, founded Sumeria and moved to Egypt founding the civilization there as well. They colonized Alaska, and North America as well. They conquered the Incas and Essex in England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEba68tEuFw&feature=related

More on the 10,000 year "claim". Riveting stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIhoBy6a0BY

Korean historians seem to be confused here. One of them said that they conquered the Incas but this one says that they founded the Inca nation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReGXaqZ7p2U&feature=related

Anyway, according to Korean historians, they are responsible for pretty well all of the major civilizations in the world so I would argue then that Korea is in fact over represented in the game.

 

[Vordeo]

Re: the OP, thing is that I don't look at the included civs as a list of the most significant empires throughout history.

Historical empires need to have been pretty significant to become in game civilizations, but I don't think the developers have gone and picked the most 'significant' civilizations, and have instead tried to introduce some new civs for variety (see: Songhai). Culturally, Korea is extremely similar to China and Japan, so I can certainly see how they got left out.

I agree with the decision to include variety, as I think getting exposed to new parts of history that I haven't heard of is pretty cool. After all, history would be pretty dull if all we learned about was the Romans.

That said, I do agree with the consensus that Mongolia has been more significant then Korea, though Korea's food is certainly much better.

I'll link to this, since it's relevant and it might interest people here.
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2007/02/korea-japan-relation-saga-part-ii-pre.html

Errr, one look at the URL tells me that isn't exactly the most objective source.

 

[Vordeo]

The problem is that its largely the older populations that are in power, isn't it?

Not really, by 'older population' I meant people who were actually alive during the war, and most of those people are retired/dead.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong because as far as I know, things like the Rape of Nanking seem like touchy subjects in the region the same way whether or not the Civil War was more about slavery or state rights is in the United States.

Ah, I was referring to SE Asia, East Asia still has a crapload of tension going on.

Then again, in another ten or twenty years I doubt there will even be animosity.

In East Asia? I doubt it, sadly.

 

[Lightzy]

can there be a DIFFERENT FORUM for these type of threads?

 

[Sonereal]

can there be a DIFFERENT FORUM for these type of threads?

If its bothering you that much, go start a petition.

 

[usi]

The problem is that its largely the older populations that are in power, isn't it?

As data suggest, the majority of East Asians see other East Asians positively, or at least more positively than the Westerns do.

 

[alaric1112]

There is no Soviet Union now.

yes you are right but i would hope most people understood what i ment.

 

[Vordeo]

can there be a DIFFERENT FORUM for these type of threads?

There is another one for the current discussion (the history forum), but the original question does belong in this forum.

Eh.

 

[carlisimo]

Then again, in another ten or twenty years I doubt there will even be animosity.

Oh, there will be. I'm half Taiwanese and I see tension there with the Chinese and Japanese increasing in the near future. I don't know how much detail to go into without starting political arguments here, which I really don't want to do. I'll just say tensions with China are increasing now that the PRC is becoming more powerful, economically important, and less passive in the affairs of others, and tensions with Japan are increasing now that the KMT is back in power (the Chinese who came to Taiwan after WWII are very anti-Japan, while the Taiwanese who were there before are much less so).

My other half is Spanish, and I've lived in both places. Tensions in Europe are lighter than in Asia. Sports seem to serve as an outlet to release them. The strongest tensions are internal, i.e. between different peoples in the same national borders (in Spain's case, with Basques and Catalans vs. Castilla, and I hear Belgium could potentially split). Democracy and liberalism have softened the intensity of the tensions. They exist, but it's inconceivable that they should lead to war.

As for Civ... the Mongols make sense. They didn't spread their culture or language, and absorbed that of their conquests, but they did spread other things. And I'm one of the people who think they weakened the Middle East and China enough to set the stage for Europe's ascension to power. No doubt they were important.

Korea's influence outside its borders has been relatively small. I'd still love to see them in the game, but I can see why they weren't in the top 20 list. The other included civilizations who didn't have much of an external impact made it in because their continents or regions didn't have anyone else.

I'd eventually like to see Spain, Korea, a modern South American civ (Argentina? Brazil? Gran Colombia?), something Celtic, Polynesia... and I'm sure you could go on forever.

 

[Hormagaunt]

Can you name one or two of these influences? I can't think of any.

Well, they spent 25 years depopulating most of northern China. If exterminating roughly 30 million people doesn't count as an influence, I don't know what would.

Further, they conquered from Korea to Poland, from Siberia to the Middle East; no empire in history, including the Soviet Union, has held as much land as they did. The only reason they didn't add Japan to the list was because of the kamikazi, the divine wind that sank their fleet.

(The Brits and the Japanese both owe their survival to fortuitous weather. Well, fortuitous for them, anyway.)

They held ports on the Sea of Japan, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean, and the Baltic Sea. That's a LOT of area. They had a trade network that ran all across Asia. It was that same network that Marco Polo followed on his trip to the Orient.

 

[Sonereal]

Further, they conquered from Korea to Poland, from Siberia to the Middle East; no empire in history, including the Soviet Union, has held as much land as they did. The only reason they didn't add Japan to the list was because of the kamikazi, the divine wind that sank their fleet.

The British Empire, at its peak, had more land than the Mongolian Empire. However, the Mongols had the largest continuous empire in history for sure and the numbers are extremely close but overall, both controlled 1/5 of the total land area of earth.

 

[Thormodr]

Considering that Koreans were responsible for most of the major civilizations in the world like China, India, Egypt, Sumer etc. I think that would be a strike against including Korea in the game.

Also, the ancient Korean Empire rivaled the Mongol one in size. It may have actually been bigger.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEba6...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIhoBy6a0BY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReGXa...eature=related


We need more diversity and not less!