Why is Mongolia in and not Korea

[Licinia Eudoxia]

It has been predicted by some people that by 2030, Welsh Corgis will have successfully gained equal civil rights, and by 2040, candidates from the Corgi party will hold the majority of seats in the newly created European Senate.

By 2050, humans will be second class citizens that labor underneath the vicious paws of tyrannical Corgi oppressors.

 

[Blitz47]

Why bother to reply to the original poster when he is obviously either a troll or a hyper-nationalist ignoramus unworthy of serious engagement? (And I say this as a Korean national!)

Anyways, while it's impossible to correct all the mis-information circulating around on this thread, I would like to address one particularly mistaken view continuously intoned even by earnest, intelligent people here and elsewhere on Japan's historic role in East Asia. To be succinct, there is a common error in the West that assumes that Japan was an East Asian colossus comparable to China throughout most of its existence. This is unqualifiedly false. First, Japan was either weak or isolationist most of its pre-modern history and hence was not a major geopolitical player most of its history. In fact, it was a major geopolitical player only for a single decade prior to the late 19th century: During Hideyoshi's reign in the 1590s when it tried to conquer Korea after the Imjin War and failed due against the combined might of Ming-Choseon forces. Second, culturally and technologically it was arguably less advanced than Korea until at least its embrace of Western science around Hideyoshi's time. In fact, as some of you have pointed out, Japan was actually the recipient of Korean culture (which was in turn the recipient of Chinese culture) until around Hideyoshi's time.

All this is to underscore the fact that the rise of Japan as a major East Asian power/civilization is entirely a modern phenomenon and even a contemporary phenomenon.

Japan did not project its power during most of its existence. Japan was focused on unify the 4 islands, driving out the Ainu. Japan flexed its muscles against Korea during Hideyoshi time and the more recent modern era when imperial Japan challenged Russia, defeated China, colonized Korea, Taiwan, etc. Japan also took out kingdom of Okinawa. I believe by a Kyushu daimyo. You might be interested in reading some Japanese perspective during the Hideyoshi era. I particularly like an author, who did some homework (not claiming he's going to be correct everywhere but I thought it was an interesting historical novel author)
japanese historical novel author

I only had time to read a couple of his work, namely Tokugawa Ieyasu, Oda Nobunaga and a couple others. It offers some interesting insight into Japanese mind, that's why I liked about that author.

sorry if i offnded any mongolians i am a korean and i just think korea shuld be in civ v before some others

sorry

You did not offend me, but claiming things without evidence to back it up does not help your cause.

Actually, this is a pretty interesting thing I'd read about. In Japan, there is a fairly small population of North Korean expatriates and their families. They attend 'North Korean' schools in Japan which are specially designated by the government for special curriculum and so on under the notion that they're a protected culture, thus granted a unique legal status.

For a Westerner, a good analogue would be Native American communities and schools in the United States, at least from a legal perspective.

There was a flap recently where one party in Japan was trying to remove government funding from these North Korean schools, because the schools don't teach the same curriculum that Japanese schools do, and so shouldn't be considered public schools.

So there is a minority in Japan of North Korean expatriates and supporters, and while I don't remember that football player's back story, I suspected he might be from such a family.

That's why I pointed that out to the south koreans in this thread. I am not sure they are aware how active north korean government can be in winning the hart and mind of non-south koreans abroad, which was a point in my post, some of the south korean here are not doing their position any favors by writing the way they are right now.

 

[_hero_]

Mongolia, though it's prominence was short, did spend time as a superpower. Korea, though it has a long and stable history, has never truly been a superpower. Both deserve to be in, moreso than the Songhai, Siam, and Iriquois for sure. I'm sure at some point Korea will be added along with Spain, Inca, Viking/Scandinavia/?, Zulu.

 

[MisterBarca]

And, uh.., source?
If you need, I can provide you with a lot more evidence than Seoul in 1750 AD was smaller than Kyoto in 775 AD...

Usi,

Source?! (Yes, that's a rhetorical question.)

Look, my comments were broad (and necessarily brief) generalizations about the East Asian region, not fact-specific statements. As such, they are not claims that are easily amenable to a quick, Wikipedia-style look up.

Nonetheless, can you actually provide "evidence" to contradict what I said? For instance, regarding the geopolitical claim I made, all you would need to do is to mention a single instance other than the Hideyoshi invasions where Japan actually attempted a major invasion of either Korea or China prior to the late 1800s. Simply put, Japan was not an expansionist power prior to the late 1500s and only once prior to the late 1800s. Regarding the cultural claim I made, are you trying to claim that Korea was not a bridge in the transmission of Chinese high culture to Japan?

Finally, I find your "evidence" about Kyoto in 775 being larger than Seoul in 1750 as laughable as an "evidence" per se. So what? The Choseon dynasty was in serious, terminal decline by the 1700s and disintegrating from the center. How is this "evidence" of anything? So if I point out that Kyongju in 775 was likely at least twice as big as Kyoto at the same time, will you concede the argument? (I am being sarcastic here.)

(Oh, in case you need online sources--and I hate doing this by the way, when anyone who actually studied the history of the region would know--here are some sites that show that Kyongju prior to 1000 had approximately 200,000 households, not population!

http://books.google.com/books?id=WB...#v=onepage&q=silla kyongju population&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ue...&resnum=6&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Since you look like a sucker for online "evidence," I simply looked at the first two citations that came up on Google Book Search. You know, some people still read and--gasp!--study books, and think such effete method is a better way to learn than reading a website.)

I am sorry for the tone of this post, but I have no interest in engaging quasi-scholarly argument online on a game with someone who thinks a Wikipedia look-up is the alpha and omega of historical disputation. The irony is that I am emphatically not your typical anti-Japan, hyper-patriotic Korean revisionists who exaggerate Korea's fictional 5000-year historico-myth.

 

[Thormodr]

Mongolia, though it's prominence was short, did spend time as a superpower. Korea, though it has a long and stable history, has never truly been a superpower. Both deserve to be in, moreso than the Songhai, Siam, and Iriquois for sure. I'm sure at some point Korea will be added along with Spain, Inca, Viking/Scandinavia/?, Zulu.

Why would Korea be more worthy to be included than Siam?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Wuzetian]

I can't stay up anymore. It's 3AM. Oh god how I hate the time lag.

 

[MisterBarca]

I am not saying that Korea was better than Japan or anything, but mostly that part of Japan's 'greatness' was that it was isolated, and solitary and able to proclaim it's greatness to itself.

Nor is it my claim that Korea was "better than" Japan or vice versa. I am one of those few Koreans who take an objective view regarding these silly Korea-Japan spats.

Mainland East Asia's history was not terribly influenced by Japan, and certainly not dominated by it.

Exactly.

 

[diminix]

I absolutely agree, and again, this is an issue of perspective. What you say is absolutely true, and the West does have a very skewed view on East Asia, but it's understandable.

I just came to this board for a tutorial on Civ 5. I'm not a PhD in East Asian history, but I've taken a number of courses on it and have read much of the reputable Asian history books that are written in English.

I agree with the previous two posters. Also some other points.

1. Colonialism, conquering: If this is important for Civ 5, why have China? Out of China's past three dynasties, only the Ming was independent. The Yuan was ruled by the Mongol invaders. The Qing was ruled by the Manchus, the "northern barbarians." The shaved head look, the queue, was forced onto the Han as a sign of submission to the Manchu people. Would you say Canada is not an independent, sovereign state because of the great influence the US has over it? Also, Japan conquered Siam and significant parts of China during WWII as well.

2. Alphabet: Who cares? There are very few alphabets in the world. English uses a Latin alphabet, which has its roots in the Phoenician alphabet, and it also Arabic numerals. Is this a sign of American inferiority? Is Phoenicia the greatest civ for inventing an alphabet? Korea and Japan have their own native scripts that are used in addition to Chinese characters, but they aren't used by outside countries.

3. Japan's place in East Asia: Aside from the Hideoyoshi invasions, the wars it fought after the Meiji Restoration through WWII, and its economic rise that peaked in the 80s, Japan hasn't been that influential in Asia.

After the pre-Korean kingdom of Paekche was vanquished, its royal family married into the Japanese family. Many Japanese now acknowledge the roots of its culture in Paekche. From this article (Paekche is the same as Baekje): http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/09/04/2010090400223.html

"Most Japanese tourists visit the Buso Mountain Fortress, the site of Baekje's last palace, and the site of Jeongnim Temple, the center of the kingdom's Buddhist culture, where Japan's ancient temples originated," a Buyeo official said. . . . They are particularly attracted to Baekje as Japanese culture is rooted in the ancient Korean kingdom."

The NYT has published many articles in the past month or so about the decline of Japan. Short story is its economy has not grown since 1990 or so. Its industries are slowly being taken over by the Chinese, Koreans, or Americans one by one. The walkman was Japanese, but it's been replaced by the iPod. Twenty years ago, Sony or some other Japanese brand was the king of TVs, now many people buy Samsung.

I think a lot of Americans have a favorable view of Japan from all the samurai movies and such. But it's also important to remember many of the things we think of as traditionally Japanese like Emperor worship were invented by the Meiji government to control its population when it was suffering heavy casualties in the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars in the late 1800s. There's a good English language book on this, Inventing Japan by Ian Buruma. Also samurais' weapon of choice was the bow and arrow, but swords were much more romantic for Hollywood movies.

 

[MisterBarca]

Japan did not project its power during most of its existence. Japan was focused on unify the 4 islands, driving out the Ainu. Japan flexed its muscles against Korea during Hideyoshi time and the more recent modern era when imperial Japan challenged Russia, defeated China, colonized Korea, Taiwan, etc. Japan also took out kingdom of Okinawa. I believe by a Kyushu daimyo. You might be interested in reading some Japanese perspective during the Hideyoshi era. I particularly like an author, who did some homework (not claiming he's going to be correct everywhere but I thought it was an interesting historical novel author)
japanese historical novel author

Again, you wrote nothing that contradicts what I said.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

I think civilizations should only be included if they have a Western opera, musical or play about them.

Under this criteria, Japan can go in for Madam Butterfly, Siam can go in under The King And I, Vietnam can get in under Miss Saigon. China gets in with Nixon In China.

Also, can we get a Kublai Khan leader? I want to build Stately Pleasure Domes in all my cities.

 

[tifa9292]

Do you have a link for that? I severely doubt that could be true.

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/ideas/brics/how-solid-doc.pdf

korea gdp/capta is second only to us and some other tiny countries no one cares about

 

[Blitz47]

Again, you wrote nothing that contradicts what I said.

I was adding to it, not contradicting it. I pointed out some of the stuff you wrote in your post early in the thread.

 

[_hero_]

Why would Korea be more worthy to be included than Siam?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Longer history. Greater relavence in modern history. It's close though. Siam might be more interesting, however.

 

[Thormodr]

I just came to this board for a tutorial on Civ 5. I'm not a PhD in East Asian history, but I've taken a number of courses on it and have read much of the reputable Asian history books that are written in English.

I agree with the previous two posters. Also some other points.

1. Colonialism, conquering: If this is important for Civ 5, why have China? Out of China's past three dynasties, only the Ming was independent. The Yuan was ruled by the Mongol invaders. The Qing was ruled by the Manchus, the "northern barbarians." The shaved head look, the queue, was forced onto the Han as a sign of submission to the Manchu people. Would you say Canada is not an independent, sovereign state because of the great influence the US has over it? Also, Japan conquered Siam and significant parts of China during WWII as well.

2. Alphabet: Who cares? There are very few alphabets in the world. English uses a Latin alphabet, which has its roots in the Phoenician alphabet, and it also Arabic numerals. Is this a sign of American inferiority? Is Phoenicia the greatest civ for inventing an alphabet? Korea and Japan have their own native scripts that are used in addition to Chinese characters, but they aren't used by outside countries.

3. Japan's place in East Asia: Aside from the Hideoyoshi invasions, the wars it fought after the Meiji Restoration through WWII, and its economic rise that peaked in the 80s, Japan hasn't been that influential in Asia.

After the pre-Korean kingdom of Paekche was vanquished, its royal family married into the Japanese family. Many Japanese now acknowledge the roots of its culture in Paekche. From this article (Paekche is the same as Baekje): http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/09/04/2010090400223.html

"Most Japanese tourists visit the Buso Mountain Fortress, the site of Baekje's last palace, and the site of Jeongnim Temple, the center of the kingdom's Buddhist culture, where Japan's ancient temples originated," a Buyeo official said. . . . They are particularly attracted to Baekje as Japanese culture is rooted in the ancient Korean kingdom."

The NYT has published many articles in the past month or so about the decline of Japan. Short story is its economy has not grown since 1990 or so. Its industries are slowly being taken over by the Chinese, Koreans, or Americans one by one. The walkman was Japanese, but it's been replaced by the iPod. Twenty years ago, Sony or some other Japanese brand was the king of TVs, now many people buy Samsung.

I think a lot of Americans have a favorable view of Japan from all the samurai movies and such. But it's also important to remember many of the things we think of as traditionally Japanese like Emperor worship were invented by the Meiji government to control its population when it was suffering heavy casualties in the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars in the late 1800s. There's a good English language book on this, Inventing Japan by Ian Buruma. Also samurais' weapon of choice was the bow and arrow, but swords were much more romantic for Hollywood movies.

Japan never conquered Siam or Thailand during WWII.

 

[_hero_]

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/ideas/brics/how-solid-doc.pdf

korea gdp/capta is second only to us and some other tiny countries no one cares about

FYI. That is South Korea. If North and South reunite as you suggested, GDP/Capita would fall dramatically. North Korea is one of the poorest at $1,800 per capita.

Finally, that study you linked, though interesting, should be taken with a grain of salt. Similar studies in the 1970s and 1980s had Japan being far and above the greatest economy in the world by now. We know how that has gone. There are just too many variables to project that far into the future. War, political change, natural disasters, etc. are just the major things that can and will make any long term projections like that inaccurate.

Still, South Korea is one of the best economies in the world and as such deserves to be a Civ in CiV.

 

[Pagal]

It has been predicted by some people that by 2030, Welsh Corgis will have successfully gained equal civil rights, and by 2040, candidates from the Corgi party will hold the majority of seats in the newly created European Senate.

By 2050, humans will be second class citizens that labor underneath the vicious paws of tyrannical Corgi oppressors.

Haha. Is that Jeniffer Meyer art, by any chance?

 

[tifa9292]

FYI. That is South Korea. If North and South reunite as you suggested, GDP/Capita would fall dramatically. North Korea is one of the poorest at $1,800 per capita.

Finally, that study you linked, though interesting, should be taken with a grain of salt. Similar studies in the 1970s and 1980s had Japan being far and above the greatest economy in the world by now. We know how that has gone. There are just too many variables to project that far into the future. War, political change, natural disasters, etc. are just the major things that can and will make any long term projections like that inaccurate.

Still, South Korea is one of the best economies in the world and as such deserves to be a Civ in CiV.

if you insist, i believe it is possible to make both north korea and south korea as civilizations

north korea

leader: kim il sung
second leader: kim jong il
third leader: kim jong un

unique unit: gorilla fighters - x2 strength when attacking a unit north korea is at war with
unique building: ryugyong hotel - +100% mony
unique ability: juche - no unhapiness in empire

south korea

leader: kim ku
second leader: syngman lee
third leader: yi sun shin

unique unit: hwarange - x2 strength when attacking a unit south korea is at war with
unique building: samsung - +100% mony
unique ability: hallyu - +1 gold for evry population the enemy has becuz they are bying BoA cds

 

[Thormodr]

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/ideas/brics/how-solid-doc.pdf

korea gdp/capta is second only to us and some other tiny countries no one cares about

You mean countries that Koreans don't care about?

Current trends do suggest though that with South Korea's extremely low birth rate (lowest in the world or second lowest), their population will shrink to 42 million by 2050 from 49 million currently. People aren't having children because frankly they can't afford them.

Since Koreans are so adverse to immigration, it's not likely that this will turn around any time soon. Less population won't help matters. Who is going to pay the taxes in the future with their rapidly aging population?

Also, as South Korea has become fairly affluent, they have also become less and less competitive. The "3 D Workers" (Dirty, desperate and dangerous) from SE Asia aren't going to be able to afford to work for the big Sough Korean chaebols in the future. They simply aren't paid enough. If they raise their wages to an acceptable level that will drive most of these companies into bankruptcy. As it is, most of the big chaebols are on the verge of bankruptcy anyway and are propped up by the government.

There are cheaper places to manufacture these goods and this will be come more and more evident in the future. Countries like Vietnam will start to replicate what South Korea did in the past but with a much higher and younger population as well as being self sufficient in oil. (Something the Koreas are extremely vulnerable to.)

More than likely, it'll be extremely tough for South Korea in the future. Especially if reunification goes through. It's wishful thinking to think otherwise.

 

[Thormodr]

if you insist, i believe it is possible to make both north korea and south korea as civilizations

north korea

leader: kim il sung
second leader: kim jong il
third leader: kim jong un

unique unit: gorilla fighters - x2 strength when attacking a unit north korea is at war with
unique building: ryugyong hotel - +100% mony
unique ability: juche - no unhapiness in empire

south korea

leader: kim ku
second leader: syngman lee
third leader: yi sun shin

unique unit: hwarange - x2 strength when attacking a unit south korea is at war with
unique building: samsung - +100% mony
unique ability: hallyu - +1 gold for evry population the enemy has becuz they are bying BoA cds

Ha! Ha! Now I know you are not being serious.

 

[carlisimo]

1. Colonialism, conquering: If this is important for Civ 5, why have China?

Well, they conquered Tibet.