Why is Mongolia in and not Korea

[risikawi]

By the way, guys proposing leaders and stuff, all civs in civ V have only one leader, still if you are proposing several - according to civilopedia each leader, not civilization has UA

 

[Thormodr]

Ok, I apologize for the tone of my original post--which I already did in my original edit to that post. I was in a bad mood, as well as late to an appointment, and the tone of your original post caught me in a wrong way. In particular, it sounded to me at the time you were someone with really no background on the topic whose intent was to troll the topic even further.

Unfortunately, while your more considered reply proves that you weren't being a troll, it still betrays your lack of knowledge on the topic. You keep repeating that Seoul "had always been small," but that is irrelevant, because Seoul was not the capital of Korea nor even among its largest cities until well after the establishment of the Choseon dynasty in the late 14th century. Instead, during much of Korea's ancient history, Kyongju was overwhelmingly the largest city on the peninsula. I am not surprised that Wikipedia neglects to mention Kyongju, given that 1) the site is generally not thorough; and 2) Kyongju went into a rapid decline after the emergence of Koryo dynasty and has indeed been an insignificant city for most of the last millennium.

Nonetheless, Kyongju is generally considered to have been one of the top three or five largest cities in the world from around 500 AD to around 900 AD. So yes, it was larger than both Luoyang and Chang'an at its pinnacle. And since you do not trust Korean sources and imply that I resorted to it because I couldn't find a non-Korean source buttressing the claim (when I just picked the first two entries I saw when I did a Google Books search), here is a Western source, the Encyclopedia of Geography:

http://books.google.com/books?id=om...esnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

It says Kyongju "housed over 1 million people (over 5 times its present population), making it the fourth largest city in the world" around the 8th century.

(I also do not understand how you couldn't find the information on the 2nd link in the original post; maybe you simply did not bother to read?)

I hope that is sufficient. If you continue to insist on your ignorance, then I will know you are indeed trolling. I generally lose interest with anonymous Wikipedia "experts" because such engagements are almost always unproductive; and I have no dog in this fight anyways, since I am highly critical of Korean nationalism, and it was in no way my intent to argue that Korea deserved to be included in this game more so than Mongolia--or Japan.

You were looking in the wrong place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyeongju

 

[MisterBarca]

You were looking in the wrong place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyeongju

I know the city has an entry in Wikipedia. I was referring to the fact that it was not among the largest ancient cities listed on an earlier Wikipedia entry that usi linked.

Edit: Yeah, that Wikipedia actually also mentions that Kyongju at its peak had a population of nearly one million.

 

[andrewlt]

Korea's leader should be Lim Yo Hwan.

 

[pagh80]

hopefuly 13 pages of everyone supporting korea is enough to convice sid to put korea in

Maybe you sould go back and read the 13 pages again...

 

[Thormodr]

Korea's leader should be Lim Yo Hwan.

I personally think that Harisu (하리&#49688 would be a much better choice to be honest.

http://www.hancinema.net/korean_Harisu-picture_12846.html?sort=Most_Popular_Pictures

 

[Blitz47]

hopefuly 13 pages of everyone supporting korea is enough to convice sid to put korea in

No, sadly to say, people are making fun of some Korean poster, but I can see why they want to do it. Some Korean poster do not bother to back up their assertion with facts and some of those assertions are quite......out of the ordinary. Even Bactria, one of the more reasonable Korean poster seem to take offense at my post saying I contradicted him, err, what? I think too many Korean posters are too defensive and take offense too easily. It makes a discussion difficult and making teasing, rather than discussion easier path to take.

Wow, really? The past 13 pages have been "everyone supporting korea"?

I think your definition of "support" is a bit different from mine...

Maybe you sould go back and read the 13 pages again...

Guys, be nice, I think it's obvious some of those posters are not good with English. Besides, it can be hard to convey sarcasm over the internet.

 

[MisterBarca]

Even Bactria, one of the more reasonable Korean poster seem to take offense at my post saying I contradicted him, err, what? I think too many Korean posters are too defensive and take offense too easily. It makes a discussion difficult and making teasing, rather than discussion easier path to take.

Assuming this is directed at me: As I said, I was in a bad mood and late to an appointment, so I did not read your reply carefully either. I apologize--however belatedly.

Again, such is the danger--and excitement?--of online communication

 

[the343danny]

revised to make the gaem more balanced and fair

leader: taejo (yi seong-gye for peopel who dont know)
second leader: yi sun sin
third leader: kim ku

unique building: cheondo temple - +3 happiness happiness
unique unit: hwarange - double strength against countries you are at war with
unique ability: science king - +100% research, countries suffer from -50% research when at war with you

UU is completely imbalanced. I googled them and it seems they would be a horsemen replacement, so yeah... 22 strength horsemen? Thats just absurd. So is the UU. Double the research rate and everybody else gets screwed over. Its not even historically accurate in the slightest.

 

[Blitz47]

Assuming this is directed at me: As I said, I was in a bad mood and late to an appointment, so I did not read your reply carefully. I apologize--however belatedly.

Don't worry about it. Like I said in more than one post. I like Korea, learned a bit of Korean myself and has some Korean friends. I'm merely trying to help with discussion and hopefully some Korean posters can understand some of my posts, their current style simply turn people against them and perhaps Korea. I like to see more civilization in expansion, including Korea, but reading some of those Korean posters' posts made me realize why some of my Chinese and Japanese friend say about Korean are XXX can be justified. My personal dealing with Koreans in Asia is pretty much none and I haven't been too active in online MP gaming to have been exposed to the negative side of Korean players so I simply filed my friends comment in my memory and did not take their comments at face value. Now, after this thread, I can totally see why some comments my friends made about Koreans in Asia are justified, sadly to say

 

[Sonereal]

UU is completely imbalanced. I googled them and it seems they would be a horsemen replacement, so yeah... 22 strength horsemen? Thats just absurd. So is the UU. Double the research rate and everybody else gets screwed over. Its not even historically accurate in the slightest.

It's almost as bad as the Endurance UA idea.

 

[Mango Elephant]

I think this should be the Korean UA. You know, to make the game more balanced:

Cradle Of Civilization: Korea starts with 4 free technologies and discovers every tech another civilization discovers.

 

[andrewlt]

UU is completely imbalanced. I googled them and it seems they would be a horsemen replacement, so yeah... 22 strength horsemen? Thats just absurd. So is the UU. Double the research rate and everybody else gets screwed over. Its not even historically accurate in the slightest.

Leader: Lim Yo Hwan, the Emperor
UU: Arclite Siege Tank (modern armor that can siege up for a range attack with splash damage)
UB: PC Bang - replaces public school (+10 happiness, -20% production to city)
UA: Stimpack - allows units to use 2 hp for +50% movement and strength for 2 turns

 

[usi]

it sounded to me at the time you were someone with really no background on the topic whose intent was to troll the topic even further.

It is a topic about Korea and Mongolia, not Japan.
The thing is, you just came in making off-topic comments and then later made ad-hominem attacks to me.

Now you say that you thought I was not well-informed about whatever off-topic stuffs you brought in.
And the reason why you thought so was that I asked for sources...

Oh well..., here is the definition of "troll" from Wikipedia, "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community."

Instead, during much of Korea's ancient history, Kyongju was overwhelmingly the largest city on the peninsula. I am not surprised that Wikipedia neglects to mention Kyongju, given that 1) the site is generally not thorough; and 2) Kyongju went into a rapid decline after the emergence of Koryo dynasty and has indeed been an insignificant city for most of the last millennium.

Then, is there any research articles that state how they estimated the population?
I am not trying to say Korea badly, but your number suggests that the Korean city > Rome, which sounds as weird as "Koreans invented Chinese characters."

At least some of the sources cited in the Wikipedia article explained how they made the estimation.
So I would like to know what kinds of estimation was used so that the not-very-well-known Korean city is estimated to be even larger than glorious Rome.

I also do not understand how you couldn't find the information on the 2nd link in the original post; maybe you simply did not bother to read?)

Why don't you just write the page number?
Don't throw me the burden of reading the whole book whose title is as funny as "Made in Korea: Chung Ju Yung and the rise of Hyundai."

I hope that is sufficient. If you continue to insist on your ignorance, then I will know you are indeed trolling. I generally lose interest with anonymous Wikipedia "experts" because such engagements are almost always unproductive; and I have no dog in this fight anyways, since I am highly critical of Korean nationalism, and it was in no way my intent to argue that Korea deserved to be included in this game more so than Mongolia--or Japan.

Hm... interesting.
If I argue against you, I'm a troll.
And because I aksed for sources, you took it as a "fight."

And, what's so sad is that you still didn't understand that the Wikipedia article has links to sources.
If you don't trust the Wikipedia article I cited, why don't you go read the soruces.

Edit:
BTW, I kinda wonder why some people hate Wikipedia articles so much.
I don't really like Wikipedia, but IMO, having Wikipedia source is still better than having no source.
Also I would like to avoid getting confirmation bias by searching sources that are supportive of my ideas, while disregarding all the other sources.

 

[lovexylitol]

It is a topic about Korea and Mongolia, not Japan.

Just to clear things up, this part was started by you, not MisterBarca.

This thread is getting very painful as I said several pages back, and I still see some blinded Koreans still not getting the point. Get your facts right, and try to respect other people and cultures. Degrading what the Mongols did, or Japan China or whatever country will not help improving the chances of getting Korea as a Civ, and collateral damage is quite high already.

And to non-koreans, lets not take those immature posts seriously. (or am I the only one taking them and the people responding seriously )

 

[usi]

Just to clear things up, this part was started by you, not MisterBarca.

Hey, don't make up a story to blame me.
Off topic talks were there before I joined, and "Japan's historic role in East Asia" stuffs were started by MisterBarca, not me.

 

[lovexylitol]

Just to make thing "more" clearer,

See post #188

(Oh I hate doing posts like this, but I can't ignore somebody telling me of creating false stories.)

EDIT//

Ok, I'm not going to continue this, or create another reply,

And how is that "Japan's historic role in East Asia" stuffs?
I compared Edo with London, which is not in Korea, IIRC.

What I pointed out is

It is a topic about Korea and Mongolia, not Japan.

Now tell me #188 has something to do with Mongol or Korea. If you tell me you were responding to Vordo, then I will tell you he was responding to #182.(guess who wrote that one) Just drop off the Japan thing, or create a new thread.

(Just for other Japanese people, I do not hate Japan)

 

[usi]

And how is that "Japan's historic role in East Asia" stuffs?
In that post, I compared Edo with London, which is not in Korea, IIRC.

Major off-topics that I did talk about were:
1) Based on a recent poll, Asians are not really hating one another, unlike the Westerns might imagine
2) Many civs are badly represented anyway, so it's kinda funny that some Korean people here got upset by Korea being badly represented

Edit:
As I said, "Off topic talks were there before I joined."

I talked about Japan as one of three examples of misrepresented countries, just to point out that it is not special that Korea got misrepresented.
It had nothing to do with history nor East Asia - I could have picked Rome instead of Japan.

Then suddenly a Korean guy came in and started talking about what he called "Japan's historic role in East Asia."

I believe it was OK for me to talk about some countries being misrepresented, because that can be related to the topic (e.g., by saying, "Korea is misrepresented, and it should be a civ than a city state.").

However, I cannot think about how "Japan's historic role in East Asia" can be related to the topic, as Japan and Korea are two different countries.

BTW, is it Korean way of debate that some people just say whatever they wanna say and then end with "I won't continue"?
Frankly speaking, that sounds very rude and uncivilized.

Also I don't care if you like or dislike Japan.
If there are good reasons to hate, just hate it. If there are good reasons to like, just like it.

 

[MisterBarca]

If you tell me you were responding to Vordo, then I will tell you he was responding to #182.(guess who wrote that one) Just drop off the Japan thing, or create a new thread.

I was actually responding a number of posts like this on this thread:

Umm Korea has been a glorified colonial plaything of China and Japan for the majority of its history.

So I do not think my original post on Japan's geopolitical position in East Asian history was unprovoked or inappropriately off-topic.

 

[Thormodr]

I was actually responding a number of posts like this on this thread:



So I do not think my original post on Japan's geopolitical position in East Asian history was unprovoked or inappropriately off-topic.

Korea certainly was subservient to one Asian power or another for a good proportion of the last millennium, usually as a vassal to various Chinese dynasties. It's only in the last 400 years that Japan has become more powerful than Korea to be sure though.