Why is the world hostile to Christians?

[Erik Mesoy]

It's not harrasment or hostility when the government forces a courthouse to take down the 10 commandments from its steps. Or when a community overturns a school boards minority decision to teach artificial design.

Never understood a martyrdom complex. Failure to advance an agenda does not mean someones activily against you.

On the other hand if some evangilist then says an act of god is going to strike down an obscure pennsylvania town that overturned the artificial design proposal.. could that be hostility?

Dude. I think you're looking at the wrong end of the spectrum. We're talking about the sheeple who mumble "christianity is oppressive, murderous and misogynistic" like an eternal truth, and their elected leaders who feel it's politically correct to attack christianity, or those who do so because it nets them brownie points. Or CurtSibling and friends:

Most humans from civilised climes are perfectly moral, we do not need some
person who is high of religion telling them they are bound for hell because of
their non-belief in a particular faith...

When a religious person says "that's immoral", they're criticised for not realizing that the infidel's lifestyle is perfect, like that of most other infidels.

Hogwash, I say.

 

[Quasar1011]

The point is that he called himself a Christian. And it's not possible for a person to label someone else as a Christian, but only go by what people label themselves.

Actually, that's not the point at all. The point is, the world is hostile to Christians, because Satan makes a point of operating from within the church!
And if the leader of a nation, in this case Nazi Germany, calls himself a Christian, but does not act like one; then true Christians will recognize this, and hopefully rise up to stop it.

Whether he believe it is up to debate, but the whole "judge not, lest ye be judged" prevents you and others from saying whether he actually was a Christian.

No it doesn't. The Greek word for judge in that verse is krisis, which means to render a decision. Perhaps a better translation would be, "condemn not".

Jesus told His listeners in Luke 12:54-57,
He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?"

It wasn't wrong at the time for Christians to judge Nazi Germany as being a nation with evil leaders. We can see the same thing happening in Iran today.
But what about "judging" a leader who claims to be a Christian?

Since Hitler was never excommunicated from the catholic church, one could say he was a Christian. However, the Apostle Paul tells the church to police itself. In First Corinthians 5:12-13, he writes,

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you."

So, if Hitler professed Christianity, then Christians had every right to judge his deeds, and call him to account. That's not the same as determining his eternal destiny. But Christians do have the authority to judge within the church, and to expel or excommunicate the unrepentant. The Christians in Germany during the 1933-1945 time frame failed to do this.

 

[Secular]

Dude. I think you're looking at the wrong end of the spectrum. We're talking about the sheeple who mumble "christianity is oppressive, murderous and misogynistic" like an eternal truth, and their elected leaders who feel it's politically correct to attack christianity, or those who do so because it nets them brownie points.

I can only speak for where i'm at.. That being America.. Myabe things are different in Norway but any politcal figure who took even a mild pot shot at christianity would be cutting his politcal careers throat. Chances of re-election would be somwhere between snowballs chance in hell and never.

 

[El_Machinae]

Christians had every right to judge his deeds, and call him to account. That's not the same as determining his eternal destiny

I agree with this statement. Maybe we're not disagreeing on this, because your post mostly sounds like what I was trying to say to you.

Cheers.

 

[classical_hero]

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to CHRISTIANITY as the very basis of our collective morality. Today CHRISTIANS stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the CHRISTIAN spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press -- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years" -- Adolph Hitler (Taken from The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1, Michael Hakeem, Ph.D. (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pp. 871-872.)

That does not surprise me that he would do such a thing because this was before the war and he was trying to get as much support for himself, but if you look at some posts that I made earlier. Things said in public could just that, so that they could get people thinking that he was really a good guy so they could slowly be brought over to his belief, but he would not want to show his true colours just yet. But here is his true colours http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3565890&highlight=Hitler#post3565890 Also have a look at my next post in that thread which is two posts down. Also have alook at this. http://www.lawandreligion.com/NInst3.htm, and look at installment one about what the Nazi's had install for Christiaity had they been allowed to. I must warn you but the files. The first installment off documents fro the Nuremberg trials is called "July 6, 1945 - "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches"". Clearly Nazism and Hitler had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity and any attempts earlier on of him to use Christian where just propoganda so that Germans would think that he was just a Good Christian when he was in fact so anti God that had they known about what he truely was about, more people would not accepted him. Also those words could have been for the Rest of the Worlds consumption to allay fears about what he was really up to, because by using "Christian" terms and message as part of his speeches, he would be fooling the other nations into thinking that he was not that bad and to stop them from realising his full plans. Also you really must not pay too much attention to what he says but to what he does, because that is where you really find out what he believes and what he did is in no way what any Christian is to do ever, so those who say Hitler is a Christian are just fooling themselves.

 

[Kyriakos]

That isnt correct, since in this way you define who is a christian and who isnt, but in this way anyone can just define you out of christianity in the same manner. Afterall it is the most stable characteristic of christians to be of the view that they are self-proclaimed (ie that they are christians once they believe that they are).
You just want to push away anything in reality which doesnt go well with your image of christianity. If a person actually believes he is a christian, then that is just what he is, to him, and is also the case with the pope, you, and any other christian. The illusion is that you share something in common, whereas- as i pointed out in my other post- those beliefs are entirely individual and personal, as is your understanding of the dogma.

 

[shadow2k]

Basically all suffering is a direct or indirect result of sin. The Bible says that everyone is a sinner, me included. It is only by the Grace of God that I am what I am right now. I am not a superior person to abnyone, in fact the more I see myself, the worse it is whenever I compare myself

And sin is a result of man, who was a result of God. Therefore, sin was created indirectly by God.

Anyway, the moral superiority comes in the belief that, while we are all sinners, you believe you're following the word of God, and others aren't. Therefore you will be saved because of that, and others won't. IE: We burn in hell, you go to heaven. It's very plain to see for those who aren't religious. And it's why there is conflict between differing religions, or even religious sects. You all believe you are right no matter what, because you are merely following God's word...so everyone else is wrong.

It would not have surprised me that at one stage of his life, he was a Catholic but it is clear that when we was leader of Germany, (and that is the most important thing to remember when we are dealing with Hitler, because many of his earlier views we rejected and he became what he became., he was not a Christian since he rejected sometime later. Have a look at these two posts that I made earlier on in another thread. These posts show that Hitler was not a Christian when it mattered, when he was trying to take over the world. In fact many of his ideas have more to do with evolution than anything else. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3565890&highlight=Hitler#post3565890 Also have a look two post leter by me, because these posts do put paid to the Idea that Hitler was a Christian

"Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941."

You will find it in Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

The pope sent his personal congratulations when Hitler escaped an assasination attempt in '39. Later the Pope was to publicly describe Hitler's opposition to Russia as a "highminded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture." Several German bishops openly supported Hitler's invasion of Russia, calling it a "European crusade." One bishop exhorted all Catholics to fight for "a victory that will allow Europe to breathe freely again and will promise all nations a new future."

If you were to look at the creation account you will see that it was a perfect environment. After the sixth day God called everything "very good", so that means that everything God had wanted was there and that there was nothing wrong with it. Sin and death was not what God wants fr us, he was to have a relationship like when they had in the garden before they sinned. Since God di now about this happening, he had a plan to get rid of sin and that happened when Jesus died on the Cross. Sin now has no hold on those who trust in Christ because now we are free to do other things beside sin, because no matter how "good" a person is, ultimately there will be some overriding desire that is behind that good that is not a good reason to do that.

Huh? God created everything. The world was "very good" until man sinned. God created man. God knows the future. God knows that man was going to sin, and let it happen. God created sin. Read your own article. Death is God's penalty. He chooses it. Nobody is telling God what to do. Who is making these rules that God must abide by? If they are his rules, then again, I'll say, he wanted it that way.

Both Creationist and Evolutionists have the same evidence, it is the interpretation of the evidence that is in question. There are many Scientists, both living and dead that believed in Creation, so it is not cut and dry as you might think.

Nowhere does it say that you can't be a scientist and not believe in creation. But the vast majority of scientists do not believe in God. I can go and dig for the numbers I posted last month on it if you really want, it was a discussion about the number of atheists in the US. I believe that the number of scientists who were atheists was nearing 90%, a much, much higher rate than any other sect of any race/region.

The age of the earth is not up for interpretation in science, give or take a few million years. Science tells us that it's far older than a literal translation of Genesis would give us. Go and look at your article again. It states that believing the world is millions of years old doesn't work with Genesis.

You must remember those who were bombing those abortion clinics are not Christian at all, because the Bible is outright against murder, considering that we believe that abortion is murder, so it would be hypocritical for us to be bombing clinics. Those were done by people how were madmen and there is nowhere in the Bible that tells people to kill others just because they kill others, because it is for the government to decide such things not and individual.

Wrong. They ARE Christians, they follow the teachings of Christ. They merely were Christians who commited the sin of murder. And they would by no means be the first.

We are all sinners because we all come from Adam. Adam's sin is being continued in his family line and since every human is from Adam, we are sinful, even before we commit our own sins, because we would not commit any sins if we were holy to start off.

So sin is genetic? Interesting. God created Adam with the ability to sin, therefore, God created sin. I maintain that your god wanted sin to exist, or he wouldn't have created it.

What are you saying here, because it seems to be jus jibberish here? This part does not make any sense.

God is everywhere, yet, the article states God is giving us a taste of life "without him". How can he be everywhere if we are experiencing life without him? The article states we are "seperated" from God, to pay for our sins. What does seperation mean to you? Pretty clear to me.

You are missing the point behind these. With Job, God allowed testing to see if Job would be faithful like God believed that he would be, but Satan thought that he would be able to cause him to suffer so much that he would curse God for it, but God knew Job's heart and knew that he would stay faithful, so God allowed Satan to test upto anything less than his death. This shows that God was still in control of the situation, because Satan said that God had a hedge around Job and that he wanted it to be removed so he could attack him. God will only allow things that you are able to bear and these will show your character up and that is how God helps people to grow from the People they once were. Jesus himslef suffered for our sins so he knows exactly what it is like to be human, so we can go to God and he will know what it is like to have such and such a problem, because, he too suffered from temptation, without sinning. Remember that if all our life was just sunshine (ie, with out suffering), then we would be living in a desert, because the trials and tribulations that we go through are what builds up our Character. It is often during times of trouble that yo can see those you can really depend upon. We must not always see suffering as a bad thing because there can be side benefits to it.

Who created Satan?

God stood by and watched Job suffer. God allowed Satan to test him. God "controlled" the situation, as you say. Controlled the suffering. Could have stopped it anytime he wanted

You say he did it to help us grow. I contend that God, being all powerful, could have come up with a better way to go about it. He chooses a sadistic way to do it instead.

Say I let my friend tie you to a chair and torture you, kill your family, etc... Then one day, I make my friend stop and let you go. I've just done what God did to Job. Would you worship me for teaching you how strong you can be? Somehow, I doubt you, or any sane person would.

I have answered some these other parts in previous answers. One thing you are missing out is the fact that only someone who was God would be a suitable sacrifice because the sacrifice had to be able to pay the penalty.

Pay the penalty...to who? Who made up the rules that there must be a sacrifice? Who is that sacrifice to..himself?

 

[shadow2k]

Yes, God did create a perfect world. Free will was part of that perfection. If Adam and Eve didn't have free will, they'd have been robots. Do you want to be a robot, with only pre-programmed input to act upon? I don't.

Well if free will led to sin, then apparently free will wasn't perfect...was it?

Yes, God knew it. God allowed it. But God didn't want it. Sin can be defined as transgressing the will of God. How can you say that God wanted something that He didn't want?

God knew and allowed it to happen. That's the key. He's an accomplice to the creation of sin. He was the one who gives sin the ability to even be on earth. Seeing how he's God and all, you'd think he could get rid of it too....and not wait thousands of years to do so.

Nice comment, except that your facts are wrong. God didn't cause Job pain and suffering; Satan did. And this comes right back to why the world is hostile to Christians: God isn't running the world, Satan is.

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

God ran the world back in the garden of Eden, when He gave Adam authority over the Earth, to act as God's agent. But Adam disobeyed God, giving that authority to Satan. It's as if the title deed to Earth passed from God, to Adam, to Satan. When Jesus came, He did not dispute Satan's rightful claim over the Earth:

Luke 4:5-8
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "

So, the world is hostile to Christians, because Satan is running the world. We oppose his plan. When I say world, I mean world system, not the planet. Christians are not to endorse the current world system, as the apostle James wrote,

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

Who created Satan? If Satan controls the world, then God is apparently not all powerful.

But, we are in an interesting phase of history. When Jesus came, he won back the title deed to Earth, by His death and Resurrection. However, Jesus is not at this time exercising His right to rule. So Satan is an interloper, a squatter, an intruder. Christians have the power, authority, and God-given task of casting Satan out of earthly situations. This is why Christians fight for righteousness in government, business, culture, and other areas of life. We don't want Satan to overrun Earth with evil.

Satan knows this, and makes war against the church. He attacks pastors and priests, causing many of them to fall into sexual evil or monetary greed. He attacks the average Christian too. The biggest war on the planet is not the war on terror, and it wasn't World War Two. It is spiritual warfare, between God's kingdom, and Satan's kingdom.

The good news is, God won't put up with evil forever. Jesus is coming back, to straighten this planet out!

So Jesus is just sitting back and enjoying the show. Goes back to my example I gave to classic. I'll requote it for you.

Say I let my friend tie you to a chair and torture you, kill your family, etc... Then one day, I make my friend stop and let you go. I've just done what God did to Job. Would you worship me for teaching you how strong you can be? Somehow, I doubt you, or any sane person would.

 

[shadow2k]

The problem with Evolutionary morals is that they are so changing and that many horrors have been committed as a result. Eugenics is a result of Evolutionary morals and we know the result of that, being in, Nazism and Racism.

There is no such thing as evolutionary morals. Evolution doesn't teach morals, it merely teaches how species evolve. Trying to read morals into them is your own flaw, not ours.

Just because the strong overcome the weak, or whatever example you'd like to use to show how evolution works...that doesn't make it right. It just means it's how it is.

According to some Christians, Satan controls the world right now. Just because that's how it is, doesn't mean it's RIGHT. It's just how it is.

Nazism was about creating a pure race but removing all sub standard races, such as Jews, Blacks, just about anyone who was not Nazi, White, Blonde Blue Eyes. That is a real mystery as to how Hitler was even part of this group, considering he did not really fit this superior race. Basically it is just an advanced form of Racism.

Racism. Here is a quote from a hiighly rated figure in Evolutionary circles. Even Evolutionists accept that the theory increased the Level of racism.

Evolution teaches us we all came from the same place. The same man (or woman), as it were. It teaches us the exact same concept of Adam and Eve, and the theories are even named after them.

Racism is a man made concept that has nothing to do with evolution. It is a misunderstanding of evolution that leads to the ignorant view of races.

So trying to say that modern morals ae better is actually sayig that man being the absolute authority, then just about anything can be seen as desirable. Often in most cases that man's views have generally been pointe out as being flatly wrong often immoral, once we get better infomation out, so relying on us to be the moral guide is not a good option.

I think my comments reflect that this isn't true. Man can be right or wrong, I don't recall any Atheist ever stating that "just about anything can be seen as desirable." That's just pure nonsense.

 

[Rhymes]

Simple enough. Take me for instance, I'm a fairly young guy, have a normal job, wife and two kids. I have BBQ's, birthday parties, watch football and baseball, and drive an average joe car. Everything about me has middle America and average joe written all over it except one thing, I'm a Christian. That is a believer in Christ who tries with God's grace to live a life pleasing to Him and according to His will for me. So the question is "Why is the world hostile towards me?"

I know the biblical answer, but would very much be interested in the views of "unbelievers". Not necessarily hostile ones either, just in general.

Why is the world hostile towards muslim? Because a couple of them are blood thirsty terrorists.

Why is the world hostile towards christians? Because a couple of them are stupid morons who will protest against anything that does not fit their view of the world. (ie: the ones who wanted to get creationism in school) (ie2: jehova whitness)

 

[aneeshm]

True Christianity is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is a simple as that.

Might prove rather difficult , considering that he left us about two thousand years ago .

 

[classical_hero]

Might prove rather difficult , considering that he left us about two thousand years ago .

Not if you consider him to alive right now.

 

[silver 2039]

Not if you consider him to alive right now.

So having a relationship with a dead man that you think is alive. Intreasting....some would call it slightly insane or perhaps delusional...but whatever.

 

[Sidhe]

People aren't hostile to christians, that's just inane and smacks of a persecution complex, what they are hostile to is being told how when why and where they should live their lives according to a set of rules written by men not a non existant god they don't believe in.

Telling people what to do in a self righteous manner anoys them, fundamental bigotry annoys people, terrorism annoys people, what corrupted religion does annoys people, the christians of a more moderate bent are fine, it's the idiots who try and force there ideology into the mainstream that piss people off; just don't be too surprised if you get some colateral damage occuring.

I happen to know that the Islamic faith is about compassion tolerance and Karitas, or the love of your fellow man, I happen to know that is what the Jewish faith represents in as much as there are those who accept Jesus is a prophet not the son of God rather than the more hidebound minority who deny him being even that and I also happen to know that is what the Christians believe. It is all the same faith. What has got lost though is that small minorities of bigots and raccists and intolerant human beings have corrupted there own scared texts to promote a political or anti abrahamic agenda that has no basis in reality. The faith itself is without sin, the small idiotic loud mouths who corrupt it so badly should be ignored, they don't represent there faith any more than I represent England.

 

[classical_hero]

So having a relationship with a dead man that you think is alive. Intreasting....some would call it slightly insane or perhaps delusional...but whatever.

That is why the belief in the Resurrection is so importan, because if Christ is not risen from the dead, then what you just said is correct, but we believe tha God has the power over death and that death no longer has the end that it once had.

 

[shadow2k]

That is why the belief in the Resurrection is so importan, because if Christ is not risen from the dead, then what you just said is correct, but we believe tha God has the power over death and that death no longer has the end that it once had.

See. Now this is a perfect example for the actual original question this thread started with.

This shouldn't annoy most sane people, whether they agree or not. He clearly states it as his belief. What breeds the intolerance is the wording and attitude of some.

You have to remember that while there are many things in the Bible that have been proven to be true, others...don't have that backing outside of that book. Using the bible and word of god as proof just annoys people who don't believe in either.

It would be like me saying to someone that I've found the last page on the internet. You'd say you didn't believe me. I'd promptly give you a link to whichever "last page" site I liked best. You'd show me a handful of others, and claim none of them were truly the last page. And then I'd reiterate that mine is the true last page, because it says so right there on the page.

 

[JollyRoger]

This really proves your intelligence. Your taking Nazi propoganda and trying to label it in a negative way on christians. I wouldnt consider anything hitler said to be the truth. Gimme a break.

Even if he was christian he didnt give a crap about christian morals. This is exactly the kind of thing a nutcase conservetive like Rush limbaugh would do to label a group. They would bring together two minor details and label the whole group a undesirable comment. He used the same strategy in his commerciels to call certain politicians neo-nazis.

I was wasn't trying to compare all Christians to Hitler. Just responding to a poster who seemed to imply that Hitler totally disclaimed Christianity. I was merely showing that he used certain Christians and their sense of moral superiority to accomplish his purposes. If I took away who made the quote, one could think very easily that a nutcase like Limbaugh or James Dobson made the comment. Plenty of internally sincere Christians today follow the words of both of those fools much more carefully than the follow the words of Jesus.

 

[Xenocrates]

Shadow2K makes good points.

If I said that that my mate's uncle once met a bloke in a pub that claimed his brother-in-law's dogs previous next door neighbour knew someone who was the son of God you'd not take me seriously.

What's the difference?

The hostility towards Christianity may be different from the hostility towards Christians. But it's so hard to try to separate the two sometimes.

Christianity is like a volcano. If I freek out I might hurt one or two people before someone lays me out. Christians, on the other hand can and have done some real damage due to the fervour of their belief. The volcano will blow up again, it's only matter of time. So basically the 'hostility' is more akin to fear.

 

[LLXerxes]

Listen, I only read the first two posts of the thread, but I'm going to post my oppinion anyways (I don't feel like reading 6 pages of posts today)

You think the world picks on you? Imagine being a muslim, with all sorts of stereotypes about you and having everybody (ann coulter, for one) thinking you're a terrorist. Having everybody depicting your leader as a terrorist when you yourself are a harmless civilion? Having everybody think you are a person who would spark a war with the west. Having people think you have a bomb in your belt when you simply want to ride the bus? No no no, compared to Arabs, Christians have it on easy street (for the most part)

 

[Sidhe]

Precisely, everyone knows that Islam is about tolerance undestanding and compassion, don't they : no they're too wrapped up in there own selfish agendas to listen to that majority that is Islam, they'd rather focus on a small minority of nutters, and make themsleves feel good that they understood the message of Islam. Believe me I see this day in day out, Muslims are good compassionate and tolerant people, as are Christians and Jews, the loud mouth idiots get the most atention, and they all shout like fools

Talk to the muslim community and the Jewish community don't base your opinion on political bs, we've been doing that for thousands of years, when will you learn ah it depresses me the amount of... can't even go on