Why no dip of the flag ?

[BvBPL]

The question obviously had nothing to do with "rendering honors". It clearly had to do with dipping the ensign. You twisted it into that form while even implying that dipping the ensign was not done "for underway vessels" which is patently false.

Pat provided a video of fleet week where no dipping was performed between the Wasp and the Branco. If dipping is ever presently performed then it seems likely that it would be done at fleet week.

In contrast, you have provided nothing more than ethereal claims that it is done.

Prove your position via documentary evidence.

Furthermore, in the video you posted, it is quite clear the Cisne Branco never dipped its ensign, so it is obviously completely "irrelevant" to this discussion.

Any fault of evidence on the part of Pat in no way releases you of providing evidence yourself.

 

[Formaldehyde]

As I already posted, the Cisne Branco clearly never dipped its own ensign so it would have been a bad mistake for the Wasp to do so. The criteria for dipping the ensign is quite clear in that regard. The foreign vessel must first do so.

Furthermore, authoritative references are hardly "ethereal claims". What utter nonsense.

"Prove" that I am wrong by providing your own authoritative reference which forbids it. Even Patroklos apparently now admits that it is done, but at the "digression" of the senior officer. However, it would be a major insult if he didn't do so to a ship from a friendly country.

 

[BvBPL]

So no evidence would prove Pat's position to you. You've categorically excluded all possibility of you being wrong.

Why are you even bothering us if you are going to ignore what people say? If your opinions spring from your brow, fully formed and armored like Pallus Athena, then the greater world has far more need of your brilliance than our poor forum.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I've provided the "evidence" in the form of 5 different authoritative documents, while he clearly has not provided anything which disputes it. And neither have you.

Why don't you take your own advice? Why are you "bothering" me with "ethereal" nonsense with no basis in documented fact?

 

[MobBoss]

I've provided the "evidence" in the form of 5 different authoritative documents, while he clearly has not provided anything which disputes it. And neither have you.

But you havent drawn a nexus to prove that those books you googled actually have any bearing on Naval regulation today. All you've done is googled from your cubicle. Pat's an actual Naval Officer currently serving in the Navy. I think I know who the exert is here, and who the poser is.

An 'officer's guide' is not a replacement for actual regulation.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Appeal to authority, even when he's a logistics officer and clearly no authority at all on this subject?

You sure do like your logical fallacies. Don't you?

Still waiting for "proof" that 5 different authoritative references might possibly be "wrong", especially given that Patroklos has apparently even already admitted that they still do dip the ensign.

 

[Carras Dad]

 

[MobBoss]

Appeal to authority, even when he's a logistics officer and clearly no authority at all on this subject?

You sure do like your logical fallacies. Don't you?

Have you proven that the texts you linked to actually matter more than navy regulation?

Btw, its not my place to prove you wrong. Its your place to justify that your google links actually matter.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Have you "proven" this isn't actually a "navy regulation"?

Regulations for the Government of the Navy of the United States ..., Part 1
By United States. Navy Dept

 

[MobBoss]

The military doesnt use google books to post its regulations or offer them for sale. This is probably the appropriate link for them.

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/navyregs.aspx

 

[Formaldehyde]

So you are claiming it is a forgery?

This is getting better with every post!



Ranger Handbook: SH 21-76

Sniper Training - US Army

 

[Carras Dad]

wait, the op is complaining about americans not dipping the flag, some soldier guy says yes, we dont dip the flag but we do something else and then you come in and claim they DO dip the flag because some google book?

i dotn get what you're up to...

 

[Patroklos]

The only good thing about you Forma is you are predictable. To a fault.

Just so you know "the Watch Officer's Guide" has no force in Navy regulation, it is just a textbook. I gave you the actual regulation Admiral-General. The point, however, is not that we can't dip our ensign but rather that we don't because nobody renders honors that way, everyone uses whistles. I showed you video of three counties from three continents, NATO and not, rendering honors without dipping ensigns.

As I already posted, the Cisne Branco clearly never dipped its own ensign so it would have been a bad mistake for the Wasp to do so. The criteria for dipping the ensign is quite clear in that regard. The foreign vessel must first do so.

What you were supposed to take from that is that the Brazilian ship didn't dip it's ensign. None of the over a dozen ships from different nations worldwide did. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, rather reality is whistle signals are used thus US ships don't dip their ensigns. So you can either wallow in your archaic google results from 1913, or learn something about a topic you obviously are woefully ignorant of. Trust me, there is no doubt which way you are going to choose.

Have you "proven" this isn't actually a "navy regulation"?

Wait! So despite your source above being from 1913, you want to stick with it? That's 100 years ago since I know time and space operate differently in your mind. Thank Forma for highlighting just how irrelevant your participation in this thread truly is.

Please Admiral-General, stop embarrassing yourself and learn. LEARN!

 

[Formaldehyde]

wait, the op is complaining about americans not dipping the flag, some soldier guy says yes, we dont dip the flag but we do something else and then you come in and claim they DO dip the flag because some google book?

i dotn get what you're up to...

Not quite. The "soldier guy" later backtracked and apparently admitted that they do indeed still dip the ensign as I have thoroughly documented. But he's still whining that I am somehow "wrong" for correcting his own error, even though I have posted the official US Naval Regulations which clearly state the same thing.

Please Admiral-General, stop embarrassing yourself and learn. LEARN!

Still not taking your own advice, "Admiral-General"?

 

[MobBoss]

Not quite. The "soldier guy" later backtracked and apparently admitted that they do indeed still dip the flag. But he's still whining that I am somehow "wrong" for correcting his own error.

Actually here is what is going on.

The regulation does say we will answer 'dip for dip' however, you alleged that 'this happens frequently'....

You havent provided any proof that it happens frequently.

Pat, as a currently serving Naval Officer says in practice, this does not occur, and provided a video example of it not occurring.

The link I gave is the actual link for Navy Regulation....not Google.

So again, Form, the burden of proof for you is to prove your allegation that it (i.e. dip for dip) occurs frequently as you stated. You have yet to do that as none your links offer no real proof of how often it occurs.

 

[Carras Dad]

you guys are funny.

 

[MobBoss]

So you are claiming it is a forgery?

This is getting better with every post!



Ranger Handbook: SH 21-76

Sniper Training - US Army

Neither of those books are Army Regulations. All Army Regulations are prefaced with a pair of letters, usually an AR (for Army Regulation) or FM (for Field Manual) or DA PAM (Department of the Army Pamphlet).

 

[Gucumatz]

Forma - Once again stawwwp, not a single person here thinks you are going anywhere with your "argument" on this one. I know some people hate admitting they may be wrong or that they don't have expertise in an issue, but come on dude. This thread is actually sort of amusing, I think I will archive it for personal use in the future

 

[Formaldehyde]

The regulation does say we will answer 'dip for dip' however, you alleged that 'this happens frequently'....

So you now even admit yourself that I was right all along, as Patroklos has already apparently done himself but still keeps whining.

And now you are moving the goalposts.

 

[Gucumatz]

So actually you now even admit yourself that I was right all along, as Patroklos has already done but still won't admit it. And now you are changing the goalposts.

Well if you want to convince yourself on Chiteng levels, go ahead I guess