Why so few beliefs?

[pineappledan]

Maybe something like Goddess of Change/Transformation?

Many trickster gods are also shapeshifters... Or are you referring more to like, Tzeentch?

Aside from the fact that I think Trickster God is fitting, it also just baffles me that the mod doesn't have a trickster god. It's like not having a god of the sun, or a god of war in the lineup, it's that big. A trickster god is literally the central god in the majority of First Nations and West African myths. Loki is easily the 3rd-biggest god in Norse mythology, Set and Prometheus are both very important in their respective pantheons. It's a massive snub.

 

[Recursive]

I pretty much always go for Expanse; occasionally Festivals, Beauty or Protection, depending on my civ and playstyle.

Haven't tried many of the others; but I'm sure that's not optimal.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I have very little knowledge of religion/beliefs, so I'll defer to you and others. In the end, names aren't important to me (unless they're supper offensive etc.), so I personally will be ok in almost any case In any case, if this isn't eventually implemented into the VP itself, I think it'd be great if you created a modmod for this and/or other beliefs!

 

[kenneth1221]

Aside from the fact that I think Trickster God is fitting, it also just baffles me that the mod doesn't have a trickster god. It's like not having a god of the sun, or a god of war in the lineup, it's that big. A trickster god is literally the central god in the majority of First Nations and West African myths. Loki is easily the 3rd-biggest god in Norse mythology, Set and Prometheus are both very important in their respective pantheons. It's a massive snub.

You could give literally any mechanical bonus to the idea of a Trickster God and it'd probably be accurate to at least one trickster myth somewhere. Trickster gods are that ubiquitous. Prometheus stealing fire, Anansi stealing stories, Sun Wukong pissing on the hand of the Buddha, arguably the entire Norse pantheon beyond Loki, and this one middle eastern guy who went into temples and hit bankers with whips.

Not meant as a criticism, just an aside. Though I dunno, maybe tricksters are too anti-authoritarian for state religions.

 

[Gazebo]

Maybe something like Goddess of Change/Transformation?

Chang'e?

 

[Gazebo]

Many trickster gods are also shapeshifters... Or are you referring more to like, Tzeentch?

Aside from the fact that I think Trickster God is fitting, it also just baffles me that the mod doesn't have a trickster god. It's like not having a god of the sun, or a god of war in the lineup, it's that big. A trickster god is literally the central god in the majority of First Nations and West African myths. Loki is easily the 3rd-biggest god in Norse mythology, Set and Prometheus are both very important in their respective pantheons. It's a massive snub.

Fertility God, +1 faith from forests (wood...get it...)

G

 

[Recursive]

Though I dunno, maybe tricksters are too anti-authoritarian for state religions.

I could be wrong, but I think that isn't really a concern for most people; it is a game, after all.

And there are plenty of examples of religious beliefs rising within an empire, even without state approval, and having an influence on the government.

 

[DeAnno]

10Faith and 5 when you complete a non-road Improvement or remove a feature. (does not scale with era)
+15% Worker improvement rate.

Seeing just the abilities I'd call that "God of Civilization" by VP naming convention. Would it still work for workers perpetually flipping improvements back and forth though? Seems a bit wrong if it does. I would maybe instead just give bigger bonuses for removing features if that can't be resolved with code, make it a strong founding pantheon.

 

[pineappledan]

Would it still work for workers perpetually flipping improvements back and forth though?

I would specifically NOT make it scale with era, like God of the Expanse. If that's the case, it's generally a better idea to just improve places that need improvement, rather than overwriting the same tile. Doesn't seem like that would be a good use of worker turns as long as your border growth isn't stagnant.

 

[DeadInTheWater]

I for one would like to see more religions on the bigger maps!

 

[Stalker0]

If people are going to spend some effort on new beliefs, I would start with founder or enhancer beliefs personally, there are already so many pantheons.

 

[pineappledan]

Followers are the bottleneck, currently. @kenneth and I are the only ones who have even hazarded proposals for new beliefs. If we added 1 founder/4 follower/1 Enhancer/1 Reformation then we could have exactly 10 religions Max.

Here are my favorites of what has been suggested so far:

(Founder) - Divine Revelation

Unlocks Holy Archives wonder (333, +5 science to holy sites, 3 slots for Great Works of Literature (+8/2 when themed))
Gain 5// for each city following your Religion whenever you discover a new Technology (max of 20 cities)​

(Follower) - Reincarnation

When you expend a Great Person, gain 30GPPs of the same type, scaling with era.​

(Follower) - Communalism

25Gold, Faith, and Production on completion of an internal trade routes to/from this City, scaling with Era.
+2 Production if City has a Specialist.​

(Follower) - Sweat Lodges

Allows you to purchase Sweat Lodges with Faith​

Spoiler Sweat Lodge :

Sweat Lodge
200 cost
2Faith, 3Science
+25% Religious pressure and -20% Religious Resistance in this City
+1 Great Work of Art slot
-1 Distress in this city
Units stationed in this city Heal 5 HP, regardless of what action they take

(Follower) - Dar-e Mehr

Allows you to purchase Dar-e Mehr with Faith​

Spoiler Sweat Lodge :

Dar-e Mehr
200 cost
3Faith, 2Culture
+30% Religious pressure and -15% Religious Resistance in this City
+1 Great Work of Art slot
-1 Boredom in this city
10% Culture converted to Faith in this City

(Enhancer) - Martyrdom

Follower reduction from Inquisitors and Prophets is halved. (Moved from Prophecy to here)
+200% Resistance to passive Religious Pressure.​

Prophecy - Yields on Holy Sites increased to +5
​

(Reformation) - Orthodoxy (current orthodoxy belief renamed to Ecumenism) -

Constabularies and Police Stations gain +3Culture and +2Faith and can be purchased with Faith
Foreign Great Prophets suffer attrition damage in your territory and +50% Attrition rate​

 

[CrazyG]

Sweat Lodges, Orthodoxy, and Martyrdom seem weak.The rest seem pretty good. Reincarnation doesn't scale with era, right?

For enhancers, I situation I get frequently is that I really wanted iconography, but someone else took it first, and the second best option is way behind. So maybe the 10th enhancer could be great person oriented?

 

[pineappledan]

Sweat Lodges, Orthodoxy, and Martyrdom seem weak.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what numbers seem fair to you?

Reincarnation doesn't scale with era, right?

It probably should, but dont know how many GPPs is an appropriate amount

For enhancers, I situation I get frequently is that I really wanted iconography, but someone else took it first, and the second best option is way behind. So maybe the 10th enhancer could be great person oriented?

Well there's 1 GP-oriented belief and 0 passive resistance beliefs. This is why I have been advocating for 11 belief ceiling

 

[CrazyG]

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what numbers seem fair to you?

Orthodoxy= Compare it to defender of the faith, which has 3 buildings, instead of 2, and the buildings are much earlier in the tech tree. This belief needs a third building. The faith purchasing is cool but its not enough to compensate IMO. Even if you call it even, the combat bonus you give up is so much more valuable than hurting enemy great prophets.

The great prophet thing just isn't very useful. A single inquisitor can shut down a great prophet, and it is very rare for the AI to try to convert you via great prophet if you get a religion (it has happened to me once in like 4 years of playing VP). I would rather have 1 faith per turn than this entire effect.

Sweat Lodge- I don't know what design you want exactly. The healing would be a military benefit, but the building is so much worse than an order. Even if it let units in the city heal to full every turn, I'd rather have orders. It needs more than just a numbers change. I know its rude to bash without offering a suggestion, but I really don't know what to do with religious buildings, we already have a lot of options.

Martyrdom= I'm never taking a belief just to weaken enemy inquisitors and great prophets. Its way too niche. If I wanted to try to forcibly convert someone, Dioceses has good missionary bonus, and some nice yields.

Well there's 1 GP-oriented belief and 0 passive resistance beliefs. This is why I have been advocating for 11 belief ceiling

The passive bonus might be useful, but it isn't that unique. Increasing your own pressure or taking inquisition both help deal with foreign religious pressure. And you can get some sweet yields with inquisition, whatever the pressure one is affects foreign cities too.

It probably should, but dont know how many GPPs is an appropriate amount

20 scaling with era, maybe? I'd have to try the belief to see for sure.

 

[pineappledan]

Orthodoxy= Compare it to defender of the faith, which has 3 buildings, instead of 2, and the buildings are much earlier in the tech tree. This belief needs a third building. The faith purchasing is cool but its not enough to compensate IMO. Even if you call it even, the combat bonus you give up is so much more valuable than hurting enemy great prophets.

Perhaps Courthouses? That fits the law enforcement flavor and Faith purchase on Courthouse would actually be a pretty tremendous perk.

Sweat Lodge- I don't know what design you want exactly. The healing would be a military benefit, but the building is so much worse than an order. Even if it let units in the city heal to full every turn, I'd rather have orders. It needs more than just a numbers change. I know its rude to bash without offering a suggestion, but I really don't know what to do with religious buildings, we already have a lot of options.

Primarily, the sweat lodge is the most 'medicinal' of all the faith buildings. The healing seemed obvious, but I don't want to put it all the way up to 10 when it stacks with a hospital.
Maybe +1 to camps and plantations as well? Get the resources Cathedral misses. Most people most easily recognize Sweat Lodges from 'spirit quests' where people go to have visions using mind-altering drugs (plantation), and find their spirit animal (camp). It's pretty plastic shaman-y, but that's the popular conception.

Martyrdom= I'm never taking a belief just to weaken enemy inquisitors and great prophets. Its way too niche. If I wanted to try to forcibly convert someone, Dioceses has good missionary bonus, and some nice yields.

The idea was that you could try to make an enhancer which really bites and holds. I get that the best defense is a good offense with normal play, but there are some exceptions and corner cases which make resistance more useful than pressure:

widely spaced city placements, like on archipelago maps
expansions on other continents that you want to keep as your own religion​

If it's an unsalvageable idea, what about my iconoclast proposal?
(Enhancer) - Iconoclasm - Per-Citizen Inquisitor bonus contrasting with Inquisition's per-city bonus
50 for every citizen converted by an Inquisitor.
-10%Building maintenance on Empire

 

[BiteInTheMark]

There's 24 pantheons in the game... So maybe just 1 more? A nice, round 25?

My favorite pantheon proposal is still this one:
Trickster God - Faith for completing improvements, favouring starts that require a lot of 'terraforming'
10Faith and 5 when you complete a non-road Improvement or remove a feature. (does not scale with era)
+15% Worker improvement rate.

I think that fulfills an actual need in-game right now for a pantheon that you choose if you have a lot of forest/jungle plantations or marshes that you want to clear. This pantheon could make heavy chop starts feel like less of a handicap.

it’s also pretty incredible that there’s no trickster god pantheon. Aside from major figures like Prometheus and Loki, tricksters are a huge deal in non-European mythologies, and are an especially huge deal in west African and North American mythology.

This is too cheesy....
Progress + Pyramids and you can perform a farm in 4 turns. So literally trading 1 gold for 2.5 faith and 1.25 science.
I would build several workers only to generate faith and science to me.

 

[CrazyG]

Yea the trickster god will only work if you can ensure you only get credit for each tile one time (or maybe each improvement?). Otherwise you can just build a fort, get the yields, then start a farm/village to remove the fort, then replace the fort.

If your average improvement takes 5 turns, you don't build roads, and you never lose turns walking, it would be 2 faith and 1 science per worker. In my current game I was pretty aggressive with workers (progress and I built a worker before settler), I have 5, so that's optimistically 10 faith and 5 science per turn, which is too low on faith to get a religion, and the side-benefits are low too.

Double the numbers and it looks decent, but only with those really optimistic assumptions. I think you probably need triple the current rate, but even then we need to make sure there are no gimmicks attached.

The idea was that you could try to make an enhancer which really bites and holds. I get that the best defense is a good offense with normal play, but there are some exceptions and corner cases which make resistance more useful than pressure:
widely spaced city placements, like on archipelago maps
expansions on other continents that you want to keep as your own religion

Enhancers need to be able to compete with zealotry, or 2 great people points of all types in your holy city. I don't think a corner case where I get to avoid purchasing a handful of inquisitors is competitive with the other enhancers. This idea could be part of a belief, but not on its own.

For the sweat lodge to be good it needs another effect. Currently we have buildings that boost culture, science, food, and gold. One for WLTKD, one for military strength, pagodas (they are their own thing), and finally Stupas, which are either for tourism or giving yourself a handicap because they game is too easy, I'm currently not sure which is true. They all give happiness or faith in some form.

So it needs an effect won't overlap too much with those. Some themes could be production, border expansion, great person points, or maybe city states?

 

[hokath]

My thoughts:

Revelation Founder: Perfect imo, go ahead and implement now.
Reincarnation: Make it so the point go to the [ICON_RELIGION] Holy City? Scale with Era at 20 sounds reasonable. I guess if we had some stats on the number of great people born in a game it would help, is there a log entry for this perhaps?
Communalism: maybe dont have the Gold? as always I think we want to keep internal and external trade routes to separate sets of yields
Sewat Lodge: I like it. Healing is actually pretty strong, especially earlier on (I put +10 on a shrine for a custom civ, and it is quite scary). Getting the camps and plantations would also be nice, helping to support the pantheons that buff them.
Dar-e Mehr: Also a solid suggestion.
Martyrdom: I really do not like this. I like prophecy as it is for one. Secondly, there is more than one civ that doesn't even feel passive pressure. I agree with CrazyG in that Iconography is alone there in the enhancers; perhaps the enhancer can combine your suggestion for inquisitors (or some equivalent if that requires new code) and also benefit GPs. Perhaps you could have +yields to great works? Much art is of martyrs ofc.
Orthodoxy: Faith-buy courthouse would be very cool. Might have to make them quite expensive?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

To the western/Christian thing:
I think it's obvious, that mostly western+christian developers use ideas and names from that background more than from other sources. And I think too, most VP players are intelligent enough to see only the game and mechanics and not get offended by any name taking decision.

I think we have kinda enough pantheon, but I really really would like to see 2 additions. Every victory condition has atleast one specific pantheon, which directly aim at this victory condition, but not the DV. Also, there are several pantheon which increase the faith yields based on gold, science, population, mountains..... but none which give other yields based on faith. Some "reverted" pantheon. So I suggest something like this:

God of Friendship:
Gain +2 and +1 for each CS you have met, doubled with friends and trippled with allied status
Trade routes to CS decrease decay of by 25%

God of Inspiration:
+2 in capital for each city you control
+1  in capitalfor each 5 you globally generate