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Why so few beliefs?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the hammer investment is worth controlling your beliefs and getting world congress votes. Only the leader of a religion gets founder and enhancer beliefs. People are referring to Hero Worship as "a game winner on its own".
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ite-belief-combinations.654119/#post-15650510

    This argument is weak. Sure maybe you get perfect beliefs spread to you, but most of the time you don't.
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Okay, so how about this for a full prospective mod for extra beliefs?

    (Pantheon) - God of Storms
    +2:c5gold: in City.
    1:c5faith: and 1:c5science: for every 2 ocean tiles worked by a City.
    Pillaging a tile provides an additional 10HP​

    (Founder) - Divine Revelation
    Unlocks Holy Archives wonder (3:c5goldenage:3:c5science:3:c5faith:, +5 :c5science:science to holy sites, 3 slots for :greatwork:Great Works of Literature (+8:c5faith:/2:c5science: when themed))
    When you discover a new Technology, gain 1:c5faith:/:c5culture: for each Follower of your Religion (max of 200 Followers).​

    (Follower) - Reincarnation
    When you expend a :c5greatperson:Great Person, gain 25:c5greatperson:GPPs of the same type in your :c5capital:Capital, scaling with era.​

    (Follower) - Mendicancy (rework)
    Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.
    +2:c5production: Production if City has a Specialist.

    (Follower) - Sweat Lodges
    Allows you to purchase Sweat Lodges with :c5faith:Faith​
    Spoiler Sweat Lodge :
    Sweat Lodge
    200:c5faith: cost
    2:c5faith:Faith, 3:c5science:Science
    +25% Religious pressure and -20% Religious Resistance in this City
    +1 :greatwork:Great Work of Art slot
    -1:c5unhappy: Distress in this city
    Units stationed in this city Heal 5 HP, regardless of what action they take
    1:c5science:Science to Camps and Plantations


    (Follower) - Dar-e Mehr
    Allows you to purchase Dar-e Mehr with :c5faith:Faith​
    Spoiler Dar-e Mehr :
    Dar-e Mehr
    200:c5faith: cost
    3:c5faith:Faith, 2:c5culture:Culture
    +30% Religious pressure and -15% Religious Resistance in this City
    +1 :greatwork:Great Work of Art slot
    -1:c5unhappy: Boredom in this city
    10% :c5culture:Culture converted to :c5faith:Faith in this City


    (Enhancer) - Iconography (rework)
    +3:c5greatperson:Great Engineer Points in your :c5capital:Capital
    +1:c5greatperson:Point towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City for every Civilization sharing your Majority Religion
    +15%:c5greatperson:Great Person rate during a:c5goldenage: Golden Age.​

    (Enhancer) - Aniconism
    50:c5science: for every citizen converted by an Inquisitor.
    +20 Pressure in cities with an Inquisitor.
    -10%:c5gold:Building maintenance on Empire.​

    (Enhancer) - Liturgical Language
    +1%:tourism: Tourism modifier towards a target civilization for every Follower in the Target Civilization's cities (max of 34%).
    :tourism:Tourism from Theming bonuses Doubled in cities following this Religion​

    (Reformation) - Orthodoxy (current orthodoxy belief renamed to Ecumenism) -
    Courthouses, Constabularies, and Police Stations gain +3:c5culture:Culture and +2:c5faith:Faith and can be purchased with :c5faith:Faith
    Foreign Great Prophets suffer attrition damage in your territory and +50% Attrition rate​
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I put some thoughts in italics
     
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  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Literally the same as Holy Law, but instead gaining science by unlocking a policy, you get culture for unlocking a tech.
    If founded at full ancient era, another 69 techs/triggers would be waiting. At full potential, that would be an amount of 27600 yields. Founding with Holy Law after around 6 policies, you will atleast found with lets say 22 more policies. At full potential with 250 followers, that would be an amount of 82500 yields. Better to get 2:c5faith:/:c5culture: for each follower, up to 250 follower, this would lead to around 69000 yields and would be better comparable.
    The healing aspect is too much, I have some concerns cause the Church adds gold to atleast one base improvement (farm), but this one is dependent on ressources/luxuries. But not that bad.
    I like it, but its too powerful. You get several thousands of culture in the late game, even with only 5 or 6 tall cities, ending up beating all other faith sources with this building only.
    Better to use faith as base, cause it doesnt scale that much into late game, like 10% of :c5faith: is converted to :c5food::c5gold::c5culture: or whatever.
    I agree with CrazyG, this is an insane amount of yields and could be abused by a human.
    No reason to pick this if you are able to pick defender of the faith. DotF triggers the same amount of yields for 4 base buildings, and here it is only for 2 and a building you cant have in each city. Plus, defender of the faith helps in every aspect with military conflicts, while extra attrition will happen so rarely and with low impact, that I dont care about it.
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I have a lot of questions about your approach here. Do you usually have 6 policies when your prophet is born? I usually have 4 or 5.

    You can't just count the yields given before the end of the game. Otherwise these two would be perfectly balanced:
    1) Get 10,000 of every yield right now.
    2) Get 10,000 of every yield when you enter the information era.

    Are these two even with each other? No, of course not. Because a really important factor is when you get the yields, not just the total yields. Within 50 turns of your religion, you'll get how many social policies? 2, 3 maybe 4? Holy Law is pretty slow.

    How many techs can you get within 50 turns? A LOT with good planning.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    good point on the low production; probably not a strong militaristic pantheon without any hammers. Maybe 2:c5production: in cities instead of 2:c5gold:? I wouldn't want to put :c5production: on the sea tiles because God of the Sea already does that.
    Yes, coast/ocean tiles. You can't get ocean tiles in early game anyways, but many people confuse coast(water) with coast(land), so I think saying X yields for ocean tiles is more clear.

    I'm pretty sure the cap is 200 followers, so I was just copying that. Thanks for the breakdown, Bite. For comparison, Holy Law gives 5:c5faith:5:c5gold:5:c5science: on policy adoption, capping at 200 followers. So at 1:c5faith:1:c5culture:, that's 7.5x the yields, so I thought that a policy coming every 7-8 techs sounds about right. Maybe that's a bit off, we could add 1:c5goldenage:GAP per follower if it is low.
    @CrazyG has assured me the healing is very weak, so there is no agreement here. I initially proposed just 5 HP, but I guess we'd just have to try it out in-game and see what people think is fair.
    Maybe just 5%:c5culture: to :c5faith:? Big late-game faith battery sounds alright to me, though I take your point about it being fairly easy to have a capital that has 150+:c5culture:Culture per turn in Renaissance. 1000+:c5culture:CuPT is an exaggeration in my experience, you maybe break 1.5k:c5culture:CuPT in the last few turns of the game and you're on the home stretch.
    800:c5science: would require 16:c5citizen: pop city -- a rarity until fairly late -- and you never convert all the citizens you deconvert with an inquisitor. Usually you'll get about 2/3 of the city population.
    The most likely situation where you would have that many citizens to convert via inquisition is if you are conquering, and there are beliefs that give way more yields than this on conquests. You can probably convert your own cities using captured missionaries, or spread different religions to your own cities just to inquisition them away again, but that's a ton of :c5faith:faith you would be spending, and you can do the same thing with the 500:c5gold: gold inquisition actions that are also 25% cheaper to do. And yet, people say that's the worst belief right now. You also have to be in a decent sphere of religious pressure in order for your inquisitor to actually convert anyone; there are lots of times I haven't converted a single citizen with an inquisition action.

    I think you'd have to wait and see what number is right, but I really don't think 50:c5science: per conversion is a bad place to start.
    Well, I'm also proposing a nerf to its biggest contender: Iconography. If Iconography is brought down a little, then it doesn't look too bad.

    Converting people for :tourism:cultural influence is viable, but pretty hard to do. There are two situations where I can see this being a really strong pick:

    1. If your neighbour happens to be Brazil or some other major :c5culture:culture juggernaut, then your main CV holdout is within easy striking distance for a mass conversion
    2. If you have a strong wonder or GW civ and you are confident you can get 1-2 big theming wonders. In that case, a 2x :tourism: multiplier on theming bonuses if very strong. That turns Oxford/Parthenon/Royal Library into 12:tourism: per turn. That would boost broadcast towers to 28:tourism: per turn. I think this tenet would end up being a pretty dangerous late-game heavy-hitter.
    It would be new code, yes. A ton of these would entail new code.

    @BiteInTheMark , Orthodoxy would fill a very different niche from Defender of the Faith. Orthodoxy is more about conquests, since you wouldn't be able to faith purchase courthouses otherwise. The Instant purchase on courthouses would be a major selling feature on this belief, and the synergies with Statecraft/Imperialism/Autocracy policies that boost constabularies would be nice.
    Yes, the attrition damage thing would be a peripheral thing, but I think it could have its fringe uses.
    How many followers can you get in 50 turns though? In your first 50 turns you're probably getting 20-60:c5faith:/:c5culture: per tech, so a little better than oxford
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    We shouldn't be adding new features unless they are compelling. That attrition thing isn't. It is just way too fringe. New code for cool things is worth considering but this feature really isn't worth the text it takes up. The AI just doesn't send great prophets to convert very often, and if they did, they really would need to be taught to be wary of this belief.
    You can get already courthouses invested for free by annexing. Faith purchasing constabularies is okay I guess? I don't typically build police stations outside my capital. I just don't think the faith purchasing can quite compete with defender's combat bonus, which is very good even if you are the aggressor. Really, this needs a secondary effect that has an impact instead of the great prophet attrition thing.
    The -10% gold maintenance from another belief would actually fit really well here and by very valuable to warmongers.
    1000+ culture isn't an exaggeration, it is very doable with artistry and golden ages. But I think 10% is fine. The building is a way to spend faith to get faith. It is very slow which is a meaningful flaw.
     
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  8. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Nope, it was raised to 250 follower some month ago. I knew it for sure cause it's my favourite follower belief. Iam also pretty sure that you get policies much faster than every 7 to 8 techs. Else you would have only 10 more policies after ancient era. GAP is a solution too. But the total yields in perfect circumstances should lie between 60000 and 80000, cause that's what Holy Land or Way of Transcendence normally reach.
    1.5k :c5culture: in late game is nothing. I remember having over 3k :c5culture: with Morocco and only 5 cities, also with Germany around 8 cities both :c5science: and :c5culture: around 4k. The :c5faith: output was maybe at 400 or 500, so 300 to 400 more :c5faith: is broken op, compared with the additional GP you can buy with the extra :c5faith:.
    The 10% is OK in mid game, but later in the game culture rise so fast.
    Compare this number with the science from Council of Eldar. How many cities would you have to convert to get that amount of science? How much science do you generate in medieval? 100 to 200? Converting an enemy city after conquest would give you several turns of your science production. Inquisition gives you a cheap yield. Which decrease over time.
    And it can be abused. Converting one of my own cities with a foreign Inquisitor and then back to my own would give tons over tons of Science. Sacrificing 300-400 faith to get 500 to 800 science in medieval/renaissance? Hell yeah.
     
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  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    but not built in 1 turn. You could puppet until resistance is over then annex and build in 1 turn, save yourself the happiness hit of immediately annexing a city that can't produce anything.
    I like the -10% building maintenance on Aniconism because it fits with the theme there. Aniconism is the belief that depictions of things, people, creatures, in your artwork is close enough to making idols that you should not do it. If you don't have complicated friezes, paintings, and idols on your buildings then it makes sense they would be easier to clean and maintain. This is why Muslim artwork consists mostly of elaborate tile work, calligraphy, and geometric patterns.
    Orthodoxy is a preoccupation with "correct" belief, and emphasizes conformity/obedience to accepted creeds and practices. This is why I want to change the current enhancer's name to something else, because it doesn't particularly fit "orthodoxy".

    reducing building maintenance simply doesn't fit; I would have to come up with a new name. Perhaps we could move the inquisitor stationed in cities bonus to orthodoxy? Maybe -25% spy effectiveness and cannot steal Great Works in cities with an Inquisitor?
    Yup, you're right. I think it would be important to keep all the scalers the same, so 250 it is. If we make it 1:c5faith::c5goldenage::c5culture: then that's 51750 yields total
    we'll start with 5% for now i suppose.
     
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  10. hokath

    hokath King

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    With the inquisitors, does the AI know to station them in its cities? If not then this isn't something we should do.

    I get the relationship between aniconism and the building maintenance reduction, but it would fit so very well on the orthodoxy -- I agree you should scrap the attrition thing.

    Perhaps aniconism could interact with great works in some way? That would make sense, no?

    I'm not too concerned over the dar-e mehr scaler. If you were really worried you could make it a %current yield on birth (the aqueduct mechanic)? Then the slowing of births naturally opposes the increase to base yield-outputs.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    just to be clear, the mechanic is fine, the only disagreement is appropriate numbers, right? The council of elders is earlier, and it’s real power is the instant :c5production:boost which comes at exactly the same time as all those important religious wonders like Hagia Sophia, Borobudur, and Sankore.

    It’s also worth noting that council of elders can do some real dirty things too. I’m currently in a game where Carthage forward settled me, so I converted it for 110:c5science::c5production:, declared war and razed it, and planted my own city there, then converted that city. You can also just get council boosts through passive pressure; I have passively converted 2 cities in this game so far

    I don’t think anyone would pick aniconism at, say, 30:c5science: per :c5citizen:
    it would make sense if it somehow let you DESTROY great works...
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  12. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    No, more reasons.
    1. You are mainly dependant of other people's actions. Inquisitor are only used as defensive weapons, if my neighbors didn't send any missionaries towards me, I have to wait till slowly the foreign followers grow and have to use then a 200/300:c5faith: Inquisitor to purge 3 follower, or I am sitting there without any enhancer.
    2. The other side are warmongers, if you capture a city each 15-20 turns, your able to use one Inquisitor to remove 10-15 followers with one use, literally triggering in medieval/renaissance an amount of science comparable with Assyrias UA (if no ne new tech is available).
    3. Cause cities later on are bigger, this didn't mean you can get more science out of it cause foreign pressure and own pressure grow mostly at same rate, making the passiv conversion rate very similar at medieval or modern.

    You will never be able to balance the yields for a "passiv defender" versus a "capture and convert warmonger", neither will the yields fit for medieval and modern at same time. Inquisition is able to be abused also, but it only gives gold and decreases over time, with this you would be able to multiply your science generation in mid age.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Yes, that is somewhat useful in certain situations. But it's niche, I can usually afford to just wait for the courthouse to be slow built. The problem isn't the strength of this belief, its the strength of defender of the faith (and the other reformers are comparable in strength, just harder to compare). It is a niche minor benefit against a broadly useful major combat benefit, while having similar but weaker yields.

    For the yields, buff to walls > buff to courthouses (when you enhance, you might already have walls. You won't have courthouses, and you never will in several of your cities).
    Buff to castles (usually) > buff to constabularies (you can find exceptions though)
    Buff to arsenals > buff to police stations (my last game I built 1 police station, and a bit of faith/culture wouldn't have changed my mind).
    I think defender hits military bases too?

    Even if your stars align in this beliefs favor, I think defender of the faith is still better (and other options like crusader spirit are competing as well)
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Sooo....
    Inquisitor actions are unbalanceable, and even the one that we have now is horrid, but something stronger than it is OP.
    passive religious defense is useless
    inhibiting foreign missionaries is useless, regardless of the mechanic proposed (via boosts to attrition or movement penalties in your territory)

    ...What am I to do? No defensive spread enhancer will get people's approval, and all the of bonuses to spreading that aren't just missionary spam are already taken. All of @BiteInTheMark's proposals for enhancers either don't have a faith sink or don't actually spread, or they are just number tweaks on existing beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The relative balance could be addressed by a change in the proposed yields or a change in the secondary bonus. If attrition vs foreign missionaries is no good, then what about some different secondary benefits?

    Maybe 3:c5culture:3:c5gold: to courthouse/constabulary/police station and can purchase with faith
    and {SECONDARY_EFFECT}:
    • 1:c5happy:3:c5faith: in cities with an inquisitor
    • +10%:c5faith: and :c5gold: in cities with 0 :c5unhappy:religious unrest
    • Inquisitors in stationed in cities block passive pressure
    Giving :c5faith:faith on a faith purchase building, spending faith to get faith, probably isn't the best idea anyways.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Some features just aren't good design. Spain's UA from vanilla is a great example, it doesn't matter what numbers you give it, it still going to fluctuate between useless and OP. The old Terracotta Army fits this, or the vanilla Japanese UA.

    I think the inquisitor beliefs are pretty bad unless you exploit them. Maybe they are still bad, maybe they are too good, maybe some number exists that's just right, but I don't really care. I'm not really interested in a belief that only works when it feels gimmicky (and its the exact kind of effect this mod tries to avoid for AI reasons). You can't fault players for wanting to maximize their bonus from something.

    I think the syncretism enhancer has this problem too. If you just let foreign religions slowly pressure you, its total crap. If you conquer a city with foreign religion and start inquisiting your own cities with foreign religions, its monstrously strong. There's no nerf or buff to the numbers that fixes this, its just a weird mechanic.

    I think the Dar-e Mehr has this too. You spend faith to get faith. The buildings that spend production to get production tend to be amazing or terrible (and the difference can be pretty small). There's probably some strategy out there that'll break the game with it; Bite is right, you can make it worth 400 faith per turn, no other follower will give 400 yields per turn. There will be a way to make those big numbers do something, Spain's ships, Byz's great people, missionaries + Way of the Pilgrim. i don't know which one will be unfair, but its out there. To make whatever nonsense the community finds balanced you'll probably have to drop it to 5% or less, at which point its useless in most situations
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is a very important statement. We should recognize that at this point in the development most brainstorms won't make major changes, and that's okay. I think the discussion has revealed a few key beliefs that do look cool and interesting, and maybe some number adjustments to old ones as well. But some concepts will naturally die on the vine, and that's just a part of the brainstorm process.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Re: this issue with Syncretism, maybe there's a way to do it if you give bonuses for both, non-followers in cities with your majority religion, and a bonus for cities with majority non-followers in your empire? I think you need to hedge them against each other, and then you need to keep all the yields global.

    (Enhancer) - Devshirme
    1:c5gold:1:c5science: for each non-follower in cities with your majority Religion
    Supply-free Ranged Units spawn near Cities not following your Religion when they reach a multiple of 10:c5citizen: Citizens
    -2:c5unhappy:unhappiness from Religious Unrest in all cities

    or maybe:
    (Enhancer) - Devshirme
    1:c5gold:1:c5science: for each non-follower in cities with your majority Religion
    1XP for new military units for each follower of your religion in cities not following your religion.
    -2:c5unhappy:unhappiness from Religious Unrest in all cities
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  19. hokath

    hokath King

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    Emphasis mine. Just ditch `stationed inquistor' interactions imo.

    religious buildings have the ConversionModifier field, this seems to be the sensible way to deal with resistance to conversion.


    Super cool!
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    So putting it all together:

    (Pantheon) - God of Storms

    +2:c5production: in City.
    1:c5faith: and 1:c5science: for every 2 ocean tiles worked by a City.
    Pillaging a tile provides an additional 10HP​

    (Founder) - Divine Revelation
    Unlocks Holy Archives wonder (3:c5goldenage:3:c5science:3:c5faith:, +5 :c5science:science to holy sites, 3 slots for :greatwork:Great Works of Literature (+8:c5faith:/2:c5science: when themed))
    When you discover a new Technology, gain 1:c5faith:/:c5goldenage:/:c5culture: for each Follower of your Religion (max of 250 Followers).​

    (Follower) - Reincarnation
    When you expend a :c5greatperson:Great Person, gain 25:c5greatperson:GPPs of the same type in the origin city, scaling with era.​

    (Follower) - Mendicancy (rework)
    Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.
    +2:c5production: Production if City has a Specialist.

    (Follower) - Sweat Lodges
    Allows you to purchase Sweat Lodges with :c5faith:Faith​
    Spoiler Sweat Lodge :
    Sweat Lodge
    200:c5faith: cost
    2:c5faith:Faith, 3:c5science:Science
    +25% Religious pressure and -20% Religious Resistance in this City
    +1 :greatwork:Great Work of Art slot
    -1:c5unhappy: Distress in this city
    Units stationed in this city Heal 5 HP, regardless of what action they take
    1:c5science:Science to Camps and Plantations


    (Follower) - Dar-e Mehr
    Allows you to purchase Dar-e Mehr with :c5faith:Faith​
    Spoiler Dar-e Mehr :
    Dar-e Mehr
    200:c5faith: cost
    3:c5faith:Faith, 2:c5culture:Culture
    +30% Religious pressure and -15% Religious Resistance in this City
    +1 :greatwork:Great Work of Art slot
    -1:c5unhappy: Boredom in this city
    When a :c5citizen:Citizen is born in this city, gain 50% of the city's :c5culture:Culture per turn as an instant yield.


    (Enhancer) - Iconography (rework)
    +3:c5greatperson:Great Engineer Points in your :c5capital:Capital
    +1:c5greatperson:Point towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City for every Civilization sharing your Majority Religion
    +15%:c5greatperson:Great Person rate during a:c5goldenage: Golden Age.​

    (Enhancer) - Devshirme (replaces Syncretism)
    1:c5gold:1:c5science: for each non-follower in cities with your majority Religion
    1XP for new military units for each follower of your religion in cities not following your religion.
    -2:c5unhappy:unhappiness from Religious Unrest in all cities
    (Enhancer) - Ecumenism (replaces Orthodoxy)
    Religion Spreads 20% faster (40% with Printing Press)
    Religion Spreads 20% further Away
    1:c5happy: Happiness for every 10 followers in Unowned Cities
    (Enhancer) - Emirates (replaces Mendicancy)
    Religion spreads to friendly City-States at double rate
    Religious pressure via Trade Routes doubled
    2:c5science: for Trade Routes to Cities following your religion and 2:c5faith: for Trade Routes to Cities not following your religion, scaling with Era
    (Enhancer) - Liturgical Language (new)
    +1%:tourism: Tourism modifier towards a target civilization for every Follower in the Target Civilization's cities (max of 34%).
    :tourism:Tourism from Theming bonuses Doubled in cities following this Religion​

    (Reformation) - Orthodoxy (current orthodoxy belief renamed to Ecumenism) -
    Courthouses, Constabularies, and Police Stations gain +3:c5culture:Culture and :c5gold:Gold and can be purchased with :c5faith:Faith
    +10%:c5faith: and :c5gold: in cities with 0 :c5unhappy:religious unrest​
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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