On Emperor difficulty for me that's about the point in the game where I can start getting techs every 1-2 turns thanks to super strong and common great scientists (assuming I took rationalism, freedom, and am able to build Civilized Jewelers). So if a civ declares war I can probably catch up to them before I'm in trouble. Maybe it's different on immortal or deity.
Why Tech tree is so stiff?
- Thread starter Pipiskus
- Start date
While I understand that the tech tree is very stiff and why it has to be so that the AI can function properly, I do think that there're ways to improve progression in more interactive ways.
The problem is that there's so much getting packed inside techs (new buildings/units/improvements/policies....) making it feels like the only "tall" progression a civ can have (as in unlock new tools, in comparison to "wide" progressions like increasing city counts/yield/infrastructure/... aka getting more of what you already unlocked).
Thus, we can take care of the issue by splitting tech rewards and put some of them into other appropriate wide progression elements (number of units/buildings/yield per turn/...). This way there're alternative methods to progress unevenly (or rush) without completely stuck on tech tree progression, and it would also AI friendly if we implement them based on what the AI already doing.
A generic example would be, to unlock some specific buildings/units/improvements half a tier ahead based on your current numbers of buildings/yields/units/... you already have at the moment. Already having 10 composite bowmen plus one of the 2 tech leading to machinery allows you to immediately build xbow at twice the hammer price, or 5 libraries and one of the 2 tech leading to education allows you to build more expensive university, effectively skipping maximum of 4 tech (exact numbers can be adjusted for balance purpose). Similarly unlocking based on yield per turn/improvements/trade routes/... or other wide progression elements would also work, and the AI would automatically get the benefits just by going into that general direction anyway.
However, it should be noted that this is ots of work, not so much on the balance side since there're already trade off within the deal, but more on the thematic side where you'd have to specifically pick which conditions unlock what case by case. More of an alternative progression mod idea for more fun/interactive gameplay than actual congress proposal.
The problem is that there's so much getting packed inside techs (new buildings/units/improvements/policies....) making it feels like the only "tall" progression a civ can have (as in unlock new tools, in comparison to "wide" progressions like increasing city counts/yield/infrastructure/... aka getting more of what you already unlocked).
Thus, we can take care of the issue by splitting tech rewards and put some of them into other appropriate wide progression elements (number of units/buildings/yield per turn/...). This way there're alternative methods to progress unevenly (or rush) without completely stuck on tech tree progression, and it would also AI friendly if we implement them based on what the AI already doing.
A generic example would be, to unlock some specific buildings/units/improvements half a tier ahead based on your current numbers of buildings/yields/units/... you already have at the moment. Already having 10 composite bowmen plus one of the 2 tech leading to machinery allows you to immediately build xbow at twice the hammer price, or 5 libraries and one of the 2 tech leading to education allows you to build more expensive university, effectively skipping maximum of 4 tech (exact numbers can be adjusted for balance purpose). Similarly unlocking based on yield per turn/improvements/trade routes/... or other wide progression elements would also work, and the AI would automatically get the benefits just by going into that general direction anyway.
However, it should be noted that this is ots of work, not so much on the balance side since there're already trade off within the deal, but more on the thematic side where you'd have to specifically pick which conditions unlock what case by case. More of an alternative progression mod idea for more fun/interactive gameplay than actual congress proposal.
So basically eurekas from civ6, which we have a modmod for that.
N.Core
1st Class of Neoa
Then that's a big no since it's too micro heavy and AI couldn't utilize it well.
City-State quests have that sort of element, although they aren't limited to science (or culture) rewards.
This also sounds a lot like making use of the Events system, where certain events or event choices are only available if certain "wide" criteria are met. If that's the way you wanted to take it.
That said, the game already has an "anti-wide" bias in terms of tech progression (from empire size penalties).
This also sounds a lot like making use of the Events system, where certain events or event choices are only available if certain "wide" criteria are met. If that's the way you wanted to take it.
That said, the game already has an "anti-wide" bias in terms of tech progression (from empire size penalties).
Maybe it would be better if those tier 1 resources were revealed at start, but they give no bonus yields until the corresponding tech is researched.
... if only as an option to activate in RAS.
I think the game would be improved by having small changes. For instance, we wouldn't lose anything by removing "Sailing" as a requirement for "Drama and Poetry", while we'd keep it as a requirement for "Philosophy" since "Philosophy" is a prerequisite for other naval units.
The Ancient era tree works great, and it isn't fully interconnected. If we were to do small rational changes we could improve the other eras so they wouldn't be so ridiculous and boring.
The Ancient era tree works great, and it isn't fully interconnected. If we were to do small rational changes we could improve the other eras so they wouldn't be so ridiculous and boring.
Well if we are talking tier 1 resources, I mean ultimately your goal is to get those pretty quickly anyway, so its not like you would be out of luck can't build improvements for a long period of time.
JavaBaklava
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 30, 2024
- Messages
- 9
Ah yes, I remember doing the funny Radio beeline to get my ideology up quickly while still having medieval soldiers.
I think having the option to do this sort of thing would be much better
it's not even a real advantage 99% of the time, since when you get that far out, the early techs that you're skipping cost like 0.2 turns of research, and you can't do whatever that tech unlocks. most of the time you're just gimping yourself
I like the dynamic between a peaceful science/culture and a war approach. I usually have to play catch up on certain war technologies to not fall too far behind but in the modern era this deficiency pays off when giant death robots become available on the upper route of the tree. I always find it satisfying to get there and "equal" the playing field a bit.
Overall the games with this mod are highly entertaining and suspenseful which is partly due to the tech tree IMO. It still give the opportunity to push for certain things and getting an advantage but, of course, not as excessive.
Overall the games with this mod are highly entertaining and suspenseful which is partly due to the tech tree IMO. It still give the opportunity to push for certain things and getting an advantage but, of course, not as excessive.
I just started playing with VP, and I am really confused on the tech tree. So much so that I was wondering if my tree is broken because a lot of it makes zero logical sense. After reading some of this, I'm guessing maybe it was designed this way, which really blows my mind. Games like this are supposed to have realism, and this tree just doesn't have a very real feel to it.
Some examples from ancient era:
1. How is it that I can research a chariot archer without the wheel or archer researched?
2. What does calendar have to do with Archery and how is an archer a more "advanced" unit than chariot archer?
3. Why would you research animal husbandry if you had no animals to husband in the first place?
4. What does the wheel have anything to do with discovering "stone"?
---Thank you @hokath for posting that info on how to reveal resources. I'll look into it.
Some examples from ancient era:
1. How is it that I can research a chariot archer without the wheel or archer researched?
2. What does calendar have to do with Archery and how is an archer a more "advanced" unit than chariot archer?
3. Why would you research animal husbandry if you had no animals to husband in the first place?
4. What does the wheel have anything to do with discovering "stone"?
---Thank you @hokath for posting that info on how to reveal resources. I'll look into it.
Because it's not stupid to require sailing to be researched if you are on a land only map? Last I checked sail ships did not win any land wars.
How are boats required to be a successful civilization on land? If people can't build boats they are uneducated? Can't understand science? Can't know philosophy?
agreed. It's no longer a strategic choice to help you start stronger (like researching animal husbandry if you have sheep or cows nearby). it's now just a requirement to research everything whether you need to or not.
Isn't this the point of increased difficulty? AI is only as good as it's programming.
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Nevermind. I found the answer to this. This does not affect strategic resources. Only Luxury and Bonus resources.
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Logoncal
King
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2016
- Messages
- 707
To be fair my comment was less in terms of historicity and realism, which neither vanilla or this mod has any of it, but rather balance reasons.
In vanilla, if you plan ahead, you can just skip 2 eras in 10 turns. Its a bit underwhelming.
Dont get me wrong, VP's tech tree has its own share of problems, but in terms of the era progression its alot better than Vanilla.
As for it making sense, i never really paid attention on the whole chariot archer debacle, because not only i was never much a big fan of skirm troops, i always felt that CA sucked.
And yeah, why do you NEED calendar for archers? I remember unlocking it on Trapping last patches!
In vanilla, if you plan ahead, you can just skip 2 eras in 10 turns. Its a bit underwhelming.
Dont get me wrong, VP's tech tree has its own share of problems, but in terms of the era progression its alot better than Vanilla.
As for it making sense, i never really paid attention on the whole chariot archer debacle, because not only i was never much a big fan of skirm troops, i always felt that CA sucked.
And yeah, why do you NEED calendar for archers? I remember unlocking it on Trapping last patches!
Balance is always a hard part of these kinds of games, but ultimately, everyone has access to the unbalanced exploits if they really want. Personally I don't see the big deal in fast-tracking to eras. You end up gimping yourself somehow on the other side of the tree.
I definitely agree this tree helps with era progression. I feel like era shouldn't depend on a specific tech but rather some sort of other means like total research, or culture or combination of several factors. I dunno.
yea originally archer was unlocked with archery, which made sense and you needed archery, the wheel, and animal husbandry to make a chariot archer, which again makes sense. How it is now makes the same amount of sense to me as a tank coming from sailing tech. I need the games to make some sort of logical sense, you know what I mean?
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