Why the change to Tradition?

[Ahriman]

It could give a small boost while constructing culture buildings? Or an extra +culture boost in the capital?
You could have the opener be +2 culture in capital and border spreading, and then Ceremonial Rites be an extra +X culture in the capital and the free bulidings.

Another alternative which would change the policy; create a new dummy buildings "ceremonial rites" which gives +2 (3?) culture per turn and zero maintenance cost. Make it its own class of building "Rites" class. Have the Ceremonial Rites policy give a new building of class Rites in the first four cities you have.
That would accomplish a similar effect but without the timing issues and without the annoyance that the policy only gives you something you could otherwise build.

 

[Txurce]

That would accomplish a similar effect but without the timing issues and without the annoyance that the policy only gives you something you could otherwise build.

How does this differ from the Liberty finisher that gives happiness buildings?

 

[Ahriman]

How does this differ from the Liberty finisher that gives happiness buildings?

The fact that the Liberty finisher gives you only something you can build is deliberate feature, to avoid making it too easy to add up too many happiness buildings.

My preference for the Liberty finisher was to limit it to just the Colosseum, I worry it will be a little too strong at current, I haven't tested yet.

And of course, my main preference is to change it so that the Colosseum line of buildings is one of the main means of getting happiness, rather than adding a pittance as it does now.

 

[Thalassicus]

It could give a small boost while constructing culture buildings? Or an extra +culture boost in the capital?

I hesitate using these because they're already effects of other policies (Tradition and Organized Religion).

@Txurce
Ahriman is basically suggesting this effect:

"+5 in your oldest 4 cities."

This would give 8 more culture than the existing effect, but would lose the ~80 production-turns currently provided.

 

[Sneaks]

I am really confused as to why certain changes were made here. Ceremonial Rites was and is a WILDLY powerful policy. It singlehandedly has won me several Deity Culture victories by using as Siam to pop 4 Wats, or as anyone else holding out for Opera Houses, then popping and building a fast Hermitage.

Monarchy: Reducing wonder bonus to 10% makes the policy trivial. In high levels, the policy is often a make or break at being able to ever build a single Ancient/Classical wonder. The culture bonus is cute, but unnecessary and altogether weaker. We are very very dangerously close to a situation where Cultural victories will 100% of the time require Tradition and Piety starts. Sure, some of these policies might have more pizzazz, but utterly at the cost of player choice.

Liberty: This tree has gotten way too happy-crazy. One of the most core issues with VEM in terms of balance is that happiness just simply is not an issue whatsoever except for when conquering big cities. Happiness buildings are rarely needed beyond colosseums in most games.

 

[Thalassicus]

96% of the user base plays on King through Emperor difficulty, so I base most decisions on my experiences on Emperor.

Ahriman feels the Ceremonial Rites policy is mostly useless. I also received feedback from several people recently that Liberty did not have enough happiness, so I buffed it slightly.

 

[Txurce]

The fact that the Liberty finisher gives you only something you can build is deliberate feature, to avoid making it too easy to add up too many happiness buildings.

My preference for the Liberty finisher was to limit it to just the Colosseum, I worry it will be a little too strong at current, I haven't tested yet.

And of course, my main preference is to change it so that the Colosseum line of buildings is one of the main means of getting happiness, rather than adding a pittance as it does now.

I think I'm missing something, because what you wrote about the Liberty finisher strikes me as at odds with your objection to Ceremonial Rites' free buildings.

I am really confused as to why certain changes were made here. Ceremonial Rites was and is a WILDLY powerful policy. It singlehandedly has won me several Deity Culture victories by using as Siam to pop 4 Wats, or as anyone else holding out for Opera Houses, then popping and building a fast Hermitage.

Monarchy: Reducing wonder bonus to 10% makes the policy trivial. In high levels, the policy is often a make or break at being able to ever build a single Ancient/Classical wonder. The culture bonus is cute, but unnecessary and altogether weaker. We are very very dangerously close to a situation where Cultural victories will 100% of the time require Tradition and Piety starts. Sure, some of these policies might have more pizzazz, but utterly at the cost of player choice.

Liberty: This tree has gotten way too happy-crazy. One of the most core issues with VEM in terms of balance is that happiness just simply is not an issue whatsoever except for when conquering big cities. Happiness buildings are rarely needed beyond colosseums in most games.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Sneaks]

96% of the user base plays on King through Emperor difficulty, so I base most decisions on my experiences on Emperor.

Ahriman feels the Ceremonial Rites policy is mostly useless. I also received feedback from several people recently that Liberty did not have enough happiness, so I buffed it slightly.

Ahriman may feel that way about it, but used on ANY difficulty, it can be one of the most powerful policies for cultural victories. That also makes it, to me, one of the single most flavorful policies, as timing it matters where it does not for 99% of policies. As per the Liberty change, I agree that it needed a boost, but I would argue +2 per city more or less upon founding is too much. As I stated earlier, happiness is just not very difficult to manage in VEM.

 

[Thalassicus]

The problem with Monarchy is feedback seems to indicate the path through Tradition is too linear... usually Monarchy before Landed Elite. I want the two sides to be equally desirable, with our choice determined by how close and hostile we feel nearby AIs are. AIs with a wonder focus get Monarchy, so I'm not sure it significantly alters wonder accessibility. We and the opponent have the same bonus?

Liberty has less happiness than Honor.

If you feel happiness is too available in general, what if we simply increase unhappiness across the board, instead of reducing all 3 policy trees? It'd have a similar end result while keeping balance between the trees stable. I could add +1 per city and increase from population from 80% back up to the original 100%, while adding +1 to the Colosseum, Theater, and Stadium. This would make rapid expansion more challenging and reward well-developed cities.

 

[Sneaks]

The problem with Monarchy is feedback seems to indicate the path through Tradition is too linear... usually Monarchy before Landed Elite. I want them to be equally desirable, with our path determined by how close and hostile we feel nearby AIs are.

I don't think the wonder production bonus significantly affects wonder accessibility vs AIs, since other leaders building wonders will generally have the same bonus.

As per Culture Victory AIs, yes, they probably will have it. However, in races for things like the GL where Liberty opening AIs are common, the difference can be crucial. As per both paths being desirable, they ABSOLUTELY are. I think the issue here is that most players tend to value Wonders above all else. We basically inherently add our own flavor values to Monarchy for this reason. In the long term, Landed Elite route is probably as powerful as a policy and in helping build wonders (more people = more production).

My guess is most Tradition players are hoping to get involved in the early wonder race. They see 2 policies. One policy will greatly boost growth, and by far aid production better over the course of the game. The other policy will offer a boost of what is at the time probably around +2 or so. If I have a high production start with lots of hills, stone, or marble, I will always go Monarchy. However, if my capital is in a production poor location, which usually means lots of food, I will always go Landed Elite, and sacrifice my chances at some of the early wonders and instead helping my science and long term production capacity boot up faster.

 

[Thalassicus]

Thank you for that feedback, I'll increase it back to 20%. Any thoughts on increasing levels for undeveloped cities?

 

[Sneaks]

The problem with Monarchy is feedback seems to indicate the path through Tradition is too linear... usually Monarchy before Landed Elite. I want the two sides to be equally desirable, with our choice determined by how close and hostile we feel nearby AIs are. AIs with a wonder focus get Monarchy, so I'm not sure it significantly alters wonder accessibility. We and the opponent have the same bonus?

Liberty has less happiness than Honor.

If you feel happiness is too available in general, what if we simply increase unhappiness across the board, instead of reducing all 3 policy trees? It'd have a similar end result while keeping balance between the trees stable. I could add +1 per city and increase from population from 80% back up to the original 100%, while adding +1 to the Colosseum, Theater, and Stadium. This would make rapid expansion more challenging and reward well-developed cities.

I would probably prefer this, and believe it is certainly worth a beta test. However, before you do that, I think it would be wise to ask people to post screenshots from their games at 20 turn intervals to give everyone a feel for where happiness stands, how often happiness buildings are being built, and so forth.

 

[Ahriman]

"+5 in your oldest 4 cities."

No, I am suggestnig +2 or maybe +3 culture in your oldest 4 cities, not +5. +5 would clearly be too strong.

It singlehandedly has won me several Deity Culture victories by using as Siam to pop 4 Wats,

Then that is an issue with Siam really, it shouldn't be giving University substitutes.
If I wanted fast museums I could buy them. And you'd also have to give up on getting the Tradition finisher for a long time in order to achieve that. Not sure it is worth it.

I think I'm missing something, because what you wrote about the Liberty finisher strikes me as at odds with your objection to Ceremonial Rites' free buildings.

I worry that the Liberty finisher will be too strong. The Liberty finisher applies to *every* city, not just 4 cities. That is a rather huge difference.

One of the most core issues with VEM in terms of balance is that happiness just simply is not an issue whatsoever except for when conquering big cities.

Maybe I just work way more farms/fewer mines and get more Maritime CS and food production buildings than you do, but I don't find happiness trivial for a wide-empire strategy on high difficulty levels.

The problem with Monarchy is feedback seems to indicate the path through Tradition is too linear... usually Monarchy before Landed Elite. I want the two sides to be equally desirable, with our choice determined by how close and hostile we feel nearby AIs are.

I think that both are already desirable under certain circumstances, but in most cases the extra defensive boost from Oligarchy is pretty trivial; the main advantage of Oligarchy in the long-run is that it saves me a lot of gold on maintenance costs. So Oligarchy is not a short-term policy.
I agree that reducing the wonder bonus below 20% makes it relatively low value on high difficulty levels, I'd prefer to drop the bonus per wonder down rather than reduce the wonder building bonus.

I could add +1 per city and increase from population from 80% back up to the original 100%, while adding +1 to the Colosseum, Theater, and Stadium. This would make rapid expansion more challenging and reward well-developed cities.

Worth considering. For starters I would boost the Colosseum/Theater/Stadium and add +1 unhappy per city but leave the 80% unhappy from pop. I don't think we need to increase overall unhappiness.

 

[Txurce]

I worry that the Liberty finisher will be too strong. The Liberty finisher applies to *every* city, not just 4 cities. That is a rather huge difference.

I strongly agree that the finisher is presently too strong. What I meant was that you seem to object to a policy that gives buildings which could be built (Ceremonial Rites) but not to a finisher (a bonus policy) that does the same thing (happiness buildings).

Maybe I just work way more farms/fewer mines and get more Maritime CS and food production buildings than you do, but I don't find happiness trivial for a wide-empire strategy on high difficulty levels.

I've always differed on this, but it could be that I either play tall, or conquer and take Honor. But some of my tall games wind up ranging into the 8-city range, and I still never have happiness problems. In fact, happiness has always been the least of my problems.

 

[Ahriman]

I strongly agree that the finisher is presently too strong. What I meant was that you seem to object to a policy that gives buildings which could be built (Ceremonial Rites) but not to a finisher (a bonus policy) that does the same thing (happiness buildings).

Ok, here's my point; happiness is an absolute limiter in a way that culture really isn't. Being able to get more happiness than would otherwise be available at your current tech level is a big deal, in a way that being able to get more culture than would be available at your current tech level is not a big deal.

Happiness in every city is very strong, and so needs to be limited in a way that culture in every city really doesn't.

I've always differed on this, but it could be that I either play tall, or conquer and take Honor. But some of my tall games wind up ranging into the 8-city range, and I still never have happiness problems.

Well, I tend to end up farming every river tile and focusing on Maritime CS, so I certainly find that happiness is often an issue, because my core cities are generally *big*, and because puppets rarely build happiness structures. I've also been playing a lot of liberty games, and before the latest buffs, liberty was quite light on happiness.

 

[Txurce]

Ok, here's my point; happiness is an absolute limiter in a way that culture really isn't. Being able to get more happiness than would otherwise be available at your current tech level is a big deal, in a way that being able to get more culture than would be available at your current tech level is not a big deal.

Happiness in every city is very strong, and so needs to be limited in a way that culture in every city really doesn't.


Well, I tend to end up farming every river tile and focusing on Maritime CS, so I certainly find that happiness is often an issue, because my core cities are generally *big*, and because puppets rarely build happiness structures. I've also been playing a lot of liberty games, and before the latest buffs, liberty was quite light on happiness.

Thanks, now I see what you mean.

With regard to happiness... I do the same thing, except I don't have puppets for long. That may be the difference. I also always took Tradition (which may prove your core point).

 

[Thalassicus]

2 Colosseums cost maintenance, and are buildable without the policy. Representation provided 5 and +1/city free of charge, with happiness unavailable through other sources. Representation required 3 policies while the finisher needs 6. The Honor tree gives between 1-6, depending on how developed our cities are. It's more than Liberty, and Honor's happiness is not "buildable."

 

[Sneaks]

I think it is incorrect to compare to Honor in that the Honor policies are really not available to someone going peaceful wide due to Liberty being so obviously superior in a peaceful game via other policies.

 

[Atlas627]

I would like to see the 4 per city and 1 per citizen come back. Also, I find happiness buildings do give too little, and a +1 to each of these would be welcome.

I also agree happiness is too easy to manage. But that may be because I go tall-peaceful consistently.

I think the Monarchy wonder bonus is now trivial.

If we make the happiness changes, make Meritocracy give +1 per city.

I just don't like Ceremonial Burial's current effect at all, as I said in the Policy thread. I don't like getting things I can get somewhere else, that is really lame. I wouldn't like the Happiness building policy in Liberty either.

 

[mitsho]

Regarding Ceremonial Rites: I do agree that just giving the free building to a fifth city does not make the policy more enticing and it delays it further and makes it even better for wide. But it should favour tall. So we are looking for an effect that favours Tall Playstyle, is flavourful yet only a minor buff?

I propose CR to give additionally 4 beakers in the Capital, one for each temple. Gameplay reason: it's a unique effect you cannot get anywhere else. Tall empires do go for science, so it suits well. If you take it late game, it doesn't have a big effect at all, it's rather negligible. If you take it the same time as one does now normally, it will shorten turns maybe of one turn or so. Yet if you take it as a second policy, you practically double your initial research yet you do not get the full effect of the policy (only 4 free monuments), which I have to say may be a good thing for a wide strategy, but then you delay the Liberty sp even further. Historically, priests create the ceremonial rites, and priests also have time to study the sky and the environment. the one-beaker-per-temple hints at a centralisation, a High Priest located gathering all the information.