Will you look over this save and these screenshots for me please?

[merockstar]

Hello,

Having gotten to where I can win pretty consistently on Prince and Noble I've been playing Monarch games, each time getting my ass handed to me.

I recently figured out that each square needs two foods, and that those foods can come from the extra foods on other squares being worked. That means if x = # of foods missing to make every square in city have two foods, and y = # of extra foods in tiles that have more than 2 foods, then if x - y = z, z = number of farms to build if z > 0.

I'm not sure why it took so long for this to make sense to me, but now that it does, it begs a question. What if a city has so many plains, and foodless but workable tiles that there aren't enough farm-able plots to bring z to zero? Does that just mean plan not to work some workable tiles? Or is there a problem with my math? Lot's of times I'll be forced to choose between settling really far away to grab some grasslands and flood plains, or settling closer or somewhere with an important resource, but tons of crap plains, and I'm not sure what to do there.

Also, somehow, by the time I get to writing, the AI is researching Construction or Code of Laws, and by the time I get there, they have a laundry list of techs I don't have. Even with me trading as soon as I grab Alphabet, which is early. I have no idea how to keep pace with other Civs in research.

That said, I fired up Civ with the intent of making a forum post really early and telling you guys what popped into my head. Here are some screenies and saves for your perusal.

Spoiler :

I pooped Paris right where the game stuck me, there were no resources in my immediate square, but it was ALL GRASSLAND with a river going through it so I thought it looked pretty good, and due to lack of resources may have iron or copper. I got lucky to have two food resources and and a marble when the city expands to that worked out. I also got really lucky in this game and popped two huts almost immediately in a couple of turns, which gave me Fishing and Hunting for free.

Spoiler :

I see that there's Copper to my direct East so that's where I'll put my first settler. This map is nice and grassland rich so it's looking promising. This spot, with all it's hills, looks like it will make a fine production city.

Now, I'm torn between the second city I settle being southwest for those sweet looking gem/grasslands (see previous spoiler), or North to settle up those flood plains before Babylon grabs them.

Okay, the last time I made a thread like this lots of people said to post my saves and screens earlier in the game than I had advanced so that's what I'm doing, with the last save being 2680 BC. While you guys are suggesting what strategies you would go about with this kind of map, I'll continue playing, and update this post later with what I actually did, thus allowing me to compare and contrast between what you would've done and what I actually did.

So thanks so much for your comments, all help is appreciated.

 

[Djoums]

Quick note after looking at your screenshots :
- You have place for a very good city north, with corn and floodplains. I would go there first and deny it to Hammurabi.
- You need IW badly because of all these jungles, I would prioritize it sooner rather than later.
- You need to scout a bit further to grab that copper, right now it doesn't have any food (banana won't be workable for a long time).
- Do you need slavery right now ? If not, you may want to wait until needed to make the switch.

 

[Agramon]

The food problem is no math problem. You should settle next too food resources, food rich places in the first place. If you still fail to have enough food, because you need to hook up that resources, than you've gotta live with it.

Tech order. All early techs to improve BFC. Than writing->aesthetics->alphabet(only ~two turns) trade for alpha, IW and the small stuff. Works almost every time on monarch + emperor. Next tech is either curr or Lit.

 

[pollock]

Tech animal husbandry to work the cows. May want masonry aswell. Need some warriors exploring. For now can chop out 1/2 warriors and then settler. Id properly grow to size 3 then start on settler. As for settling there is a nice place due north but its next to ai. Really need more scouting done .

Gems and ivory is pretty good commerce but no food resource near them. Generally settling with atleast 1 food resource that you get online first and fast is good idea. Getting 2 food resources is even better and can get cities of the ground fast. I wouldnt worry so much about the pop 21 maximised potential of city . The beginning is alot more important and if do that well can nearly always win before get anywhere near it. A little overlap with sub optimal long term potential can effortlessly be overcome with some short term advantages Prime example a city with bronze in first ring for rush or cities with food resource in first ring for non creative civs. Dont get me wrong im not excusing bad settling hehe

 

[lymond]

Yeah...Aesth is a great trade bait tech and you have to trade techs strategically more once you hit Monarch. Don't worry if you get a little behind on tech as you can catch up this way

I recommend not switching into Slavery when you first get BW like that - unless you are Spiritual, of course. It's rather pointless. You want to grow and get that first settler out. You have now wasted a turn on anarchy. I will wait until I at least get my first settler out or often until after the second city is settled and it grows to Size 2 so I can whip the Monument. Forest chops are better early to get things out - not whipping.

I'd wager to guess you have iron or horses on the unforested tile. My guess is horses unless you had already teched AH.

You really want to be really careful whipping your capital in the early game before you get a granary. Depends on how food rich/poor is. The reason is that your cap is often very productive when it grows to size 5 or 6. Yeah, you might get things out quicker but you lose a lot of production. Not saying don't whip your cap, just be judicious about it.

 

[vranasm]

that fp+corn place is a bit too close to hammu...it would be a bit race and on monarch Ais are a bit quicker on their 2nd city then you're used to.

Marble in BFC should make you life easier...GL should be safe bet, Oracle really depends on your quickness

calendar+iw seems like high priority, the land south of you is pretty good.
5 riverside grass at cap should provide some commerce + hammers with copping, so getting pottery is worthwile too.

seems like fun map, probably will borrow it later today for shadow ;-)

 

[vranasm]

I'd wager to guess you have iron or horses on the unforested tile. My guess is horses unless you had already teched AH.

seeing 4 resources in cap bfc it would be really "too much"

 

[lymond]

seeing 4 resources in cap bfc it would be really "too much"

what is this mystery 4th resource? and i've had a lot more the 4 resources many times.

 

[vranasm]

what is this mystery 4th resource? and i've had a lot more the 4 resources many times.

well i read it somewhere...so i take it as a good "rule of thumb" if i dont see there 4 resources i expect 1 strategic...

interestingely in last 2 weeks i saw here on forums some maps with 5+ resources in cap...but lately i am lucky if i get 3 in my home games...
absolute record was i think plains cow+grass cow as food resource and some garbage thing to it...and no strategic afterwards...

 

[Djoums]

that fp+corn place is a bit too close to hammu...it would be a bit race and on monarch Ais are a bit quicker on their 2nd city then you're used to.

On Immortal probably, on Monarch it's definitely doable.

Spoiler :

 

[vranasm]

On Immortal probably, on Monarch it's definitely doable.

Spoiler :

exactly the place where i would put it , you waited to size 3 or rushed at size 2 settler out growth after? i am torn on it somewhat...dunno how many workers you already have but if it's 2 i would instead of settler build worker at cap

 

[coanda]

A question, then a few points.
Question: When/where did you meet Churchill?

Point: Everything you do should be towards a plan, and if you can put it off for later do so.

That means if you research a tech, you should know why you're doing it, and it should have immediate benefit. Note that one possible immediate benefit is simply letting you research a tech after it, and another is just to trade it around... but you shouldn't for example research Fishing when you have no coastal cities and no immediate plans to settle one. It may be you had a clear idea for all your research so far, but all I see is Bronze working plus every first-rank tech researched. Make sure you have a reason to currently be researching Mysticism. If you aren't going to go immediately on to research Polytheism or Meditation and have no short-term plans to build Stonehenge, then you can hold off on it until later. Instead (just for example) why not take those beakers and get Animal Husbandry, which will let you start eating beef sooner.

Another case in point is switching to slavery. As Djoums mentions, there was no immediate benefit to you for doing this. At best it only slightly hurts you (your units get built 1 turn later for a while, which means they help you for 1 turn less); it also can have some other slight negative effects depending on how the game plays out.

A third case in point is early build order. There are good reasons to be building a warrior now - if you're planning on scouting with him. If he's just going to sit home garrisoning your capital, you might as well build a second worker first.

Fourth case in point: Worker improvements. I get building the farm over that corn. I question building a road immediately to hook up the corn. You had 12 health before that, so the odds of your city becoming unhealthy any time in the near future were basically zero... which means you had no need for the corn. Recognize that time spent building a road is time not spent building improvements or chopping forests, so if the road doesn't help you now maybe put off building it until later. Similarly, you fast-teched to bronze-working, then spent the significant early portion of your worker's life not chopping forests. The chop is one of the best early-game tools, and I might well have grabbed that first worker and chopped out a second worker before switching to warrior.

Second point: Early scouting. It's unfortunate your warrior died this early. I don't know where/how exactly (all I've got is "3040 BC: While Defending, your Warrior 1 (Paris) was destroyed by a Barbarian Lion!"). And frankly, scouts (including warrior scouts) generally die, and there's a limited amount you can do about that. However, I want to make sure that when you're scouting with that warrior you're doing your best to stay near rivers, on the coast, on hilltops, in forest, and/or in jungle - anything to get a defensive bonus or to cut down on the number of directions you can bump into a barb from. So I may be speaking up about nothing here, but I just wanted to be sure.

Third point: Regarding where to go from here. Hammurabi and Churchill won't plot war at pleased disposition, so with a little care in diplomacy you can be mostly safe from them this game. That means if you go for an early land-grab, you can probably hold on to it, so I start thinking about an early-game rapid expansion... unless you first met Churchill to the east / southeast (as I suspect, based on the fact that in your last save the archer is on that side of your capital), and you immediately book it on over there with your warrior and find him within ~12-15 spaces of your capital. It's definitely not too late to plot an axe rush if Churchill is where I suspect, especially with the extremely large number of forests in your capital's BFC and the copper being in the right general direction anyways. Napoleon can do extremely well with an early rush - Charismatic makes it easier to pull off plus makes it more valuable to you to do so by giving easier promotions, and Organized helps you keep what you take. You give Hammurabi free reign to grab that nice city site Djoums pointed out, but frankly if that's the cost of pulling off a successful axe rush it's probably worth it. Of course, this all assumes that England is in fact reasonably close off to the east / southeast. Longer-term, key techs I see for you are Iron Working and Code of Laws. Your lucky number is 17.

Hopefully this didn't come across as overly doubtful of your abilities; I erred on the side of giving too much advice figuring it's easier for you to just ignore what you already know and/or disagree with than for you to telepathically read my mind and deduce advice I thought about giving but decided not to.

 

[Djoums]

exactly the place where i would put it , you waited to size 3 or rushed at size 2 settler out growth after? i am torn on it somewhat...dunno how many workers you already have but if it's 2 i would instead of settler build worker at cap

I only have 2 workers but I need that copper asap so settler first and rush monument in east city. No whip, I'm not in slavery yet. Settler at size 3 while mining the marble for early prod boost. Then chopped 2nd worker.

 

[merockstar]

Glad to see such an enthusiastic response.

I didn't actually get around to playing any more turns in this one but...

Djoums strategy sounds like something I would have attempted to pull off, except I would have attempted to settle the Copper to the east first, prioritizing military strength (it seems like I always get ravaged if I don't).

It's interesting to see that he won that race to Hammurabiland. That really stifles him a bit doesn't it?

I do often prioritize Aethetics for trading, but I'm thinking maybe not as soon as I ought to. Should I put off Pottery for this?

I managed to put my warrior in a tile with a warrior and a lion in adjacent squares, and they both attacked The warrior in queue was indeed for scouting purposes.
But thank you to all who astutely pointed that out, there's no way I would expect you to know how my warrior died early, and that's great advice. Could never take offense to that.

Fishing and hunting were popped from huts. Freak accident. (Trade off for warrior dieing early??)

Coanda, you will never hurt my feelings with the advice I asked for. Especially if it's as well thought out as yours seems.

Churchills scout stumbled into mine right before he died, I believe he came from an unscouted land west of Babylon, but he ran right back into the black and I'm not quite certain about that.

Perhaps I could ignite a war between those two... then come in and steal a couple cities from the loser if I expand... west...?

I don't usually research mysticism, but in my last game I found that it was convenient for me to expand my cities into certain resources, and was really annoyed by the culture problems it was giving me early. I thought maybe some monuments would help out with that, in retrospect this map seems pretty outer-ring resource rich too.

Animal Husbandry was pretty early on my list of priorities, but it will be even earlier now when I see beef. I will also de-prioritize roads unless I have a good reason for them in the future.

Ah, maybe I shouldn't waste early anarchy turns unnecessarily, check.

17 is how big my capitol should grow to?

My gut was telling me England is not down there, but I'm not completely sure about it. What then?

Think I'll play a few more turns now.

 

[merockstar]

Played a couple more turns...

Spoiler :

In this screen you'll see that I got another warrior online and exploring. Decided to go with an early rex type things, not sure of England's location. I found Khmer to the west.

Djoums screenshot implies Togukawa from the east/southeast.

Decided, not to race north for Babyland in favor of cow/gems rivergrassland city to the southwest.

Did so...

Realized this turn that that warrior should be scouting southeast, started that rolling. I'm hoping maybe there will be some food in the unscouted area near the Copper.

The extra warrior I built in capitol was to escort the Settler I'm now building. Before these screens I pumped out an extra worker.

 

[Abegweit]

I recently figured out that each square needs two foods, and that those foods can come from the extra foods on other squares being worked. That means if x = # of foods missing to make every square in city have two foods, and y = # of extra foods in tiles that have more than 2 foods, then if x - y = z, z = number of farms to build if z > 0.

Nice analysis. Spot on the money. So what does it say that your opening tech research order should be?

 

[merockstar]

Nice analysis. Spot on the money. So what does it say that your opening tech research order should be?

Agriculture/Animal Husbandry/Fishing Depending on where your city is and what resources it has available.

Following by Mining/Bronze Working if lots of forest, and Iron Working if lots of jungle. Then mysticism for annoying border pops.

I've been wondering about Pottery. Should I put it off and trade for it?

Is there anything I can do for cities that can't bring z to zero through farms?

 

[coanda]

Sid's Sushi, late-game. Incredibly good for turning marginal cities into powerhouses.

 

[joanne]

well i read it somewhere...so i take it as a good "rule of thumb" if i dont see there 4 resources i expect 1 strategic...

interestingely in last 2 weeks i saw here on forums some maps with 5+ resources in cap...but lately i am lucky if i get 3 in my home games...
absolute record was i think plains cow+grass cow as food resource and some garbage thing to it...and no strategic afterwards...

I believe the mapgen values resources differently when placing them in the starting BFC, for example, food and strategic resources are probably valued above luxuries, and flood plains count as half a resource... I don't recall the exact numbers though

 

[Djoums]

Merockstar : your 2nd city is nice but too early. You don't have IW yet and you'll need a ton of workers to clear off your tiles. That city spot wasn't threatened yet by the other AIs because of the jungles, you should settle it as your 3rd or 4th city (my choice would be 4th).
As it is, this city won't be usefull for at least 25 turns, probably even more because your 3rd city will drain your economy further and delay IW. You want your first cities to help you asap.