Win on Prince consistently...lose on Monarch every time!

[riapopia]

So, the subject says it all. I can win on Prince nearly every time but seem to have no chance on Monarch. Clearly my Prince strategy is not getting it done. I tend to be more of a builder and don't typically war until knights or maceman and then only when I'm sure I have overwhelming numbers to annihilate a nearby civ.

I spend a lot of time in the early game building out 5-6 core cities (at least 1 GP Farm) and think I do a reasonable job of specializing them. I also liberally make use of chopping/whipping early to build out lots of workers, settlers, and warriors/axes.

So...I get slaughtered on Monarch seemingly. Even the barbarians seem to have Archers before I can build anything other than warriors. And the AI civs are WAY ahead in score and technologies. Once they declare on war with me their superior army (and especially navy) just romp through my land.

In reading the boards, it seems the concensus is to war early and often. But in the games I've played, either the AI civs are too far away or I have no access to copper.

Any advice from you pros out there?

 

[Woobi]

I was in the same boat you are in a few weeks ago. A big builder, could win on Prince easy, but Monarch was impossible.

What techs do you research early?

A big thing that got me over the hump is the addition of an early Axe war to gain one or two cities, but more importantly, pillage money to keep research at 100%...

 

[OceansEleven]

I'm on Prince. The strategy that has made me pretty much win/be in the lead the last few games is work the cottages ASAP! Build 3 around a city, and keep working them no matter what. Add some more later on. If you have to, sacrifice some okay/good tiles just to get the cottages running up.

Try that. I've never played on Monarch yet, but that strategy may help. Just build 2 more cottages than you normally would in each city, and you should be okay.

 

[drkodos]

In reading the boards, it seems the concensus is to war early and often. But in the games I've played, either the AI civs are too far away or I have no access to copper.

Any advice from you pros out there?

What size maps are you playing on? I would suggest pangaea map with 6 opponents on a normal size, marathon speed to move into the next level. The marathon speed allows for mistakes to be made without them being game breakers.

If opponents are distant, use some workers to build roads to them. Get some quicker units such as Chariots and other mounted units to make up some time.

Try playing a civ that has an early UU that you can exploit and take it to the nearest opponent as soon as you can get a decent batallion of units.

Try different tactics and don't be afraid of losing.

Stealing workers from an opponent can cripple them and add to your worker fleet.

Not all wars need be fought unit to unit. Sometimes a pillaging raid can be effective at shutting down an opponents research rate so that you can keep a tech lead.

 

[miller4242]

to riapopia - welcome to civfanantics

I would highly suggest that you go thru the war academy and read thru some succession games. You will find out how the pros think.

I was just like you. In regards to CIV4 vanilla, I could beat prince hands down. I put some monarch victories under my belt. However, I recently bought Warlords and I went down a level because there have been so many changes. The game is definitely more challenging now.

The biggest piece of advice I can give you, on higher levels, is to get into an early war. This will slow the growth and tech research of your AI opponent. Also, this is one of the most common tactics of the pros.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Any advice from you pros out there?

Focus on the opening. Two forms of practice.

1) pick an opening position you like (I suggest turning off goodie huts - use your judgment), save it, and play it several times in a row - 50 to 100 turns or so.

2) Rig up random leaders, and restart every 50-100 turns or so. Just keep practicing the opening over and over, figuring out how to leverage different combinations of positions/leaders.

3) Turn the difficulty way up - Immortal, raging barbs, Aggressive AI, whatever it takes, and focus on survival. Learn how to fight efficiently - in particular, learn how to choose your ground so that you can fight efficiently. I finally felt as though I was making a breakthrough when I gave an axeman an amphibious promotion.



What I learned is that my openings are a little bit soft (which is part of why slower game speeds give me such a headache), that I needed to improve my awareness of defense (not necessarily making it a higher priority, but rather paying attention to prioritizing it correctly), and that compromising some of my builder principles (in particular, considering defendable city positions rather than perfect dotmaps).

 

[miller4242]

3) Turn the difficulty way up - Immortal, raging barbs, Aggressive AI, whatever it takes, and focus on survival. Learn how to fight efficiently - in particular, learn how to choose your ground so that you can fight efficiently. I finally felt as though I was making a breakthrough when I gave an axeman an amphibious promotion.

If you are at Prince level, and you are going to use this as practice, make sure to have some Tylenol and Tums next to your computer.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

You dont have to wage an early war...unless you dont have a lot of cities. On monarch I've found even if I can match other civs in # of cities and develop them well, the ai will pull ahead eventually. I have won a couple monarch games without waging war (exception being when I am attacked) but here are a couple general tips.

1. Either beeline to be the best in tech (oracle, great library, universities, liberalism), have a solid economy (found a religion, markets, banks, courthouses), or a particular unit (be the first to macemen, riflemen, etc). To paraphrase what someone else here said...unlike Prince, you wont be able to be the best at EVERYTHING. So pick a direction and be the very best at that. The others will fall into place.

2. Pick your first target well. I usually try for the weakest neighbor I have. Sometimes I'll attack a neighbor before they get their UU (toku, izzy, english, russia). Or I'll notice a couple border cities weakly guarded. Whatever. Pick a target that you will have a measured advantage against.

3. Recon is extremely valuable. Use open borders to scout out the enemy. Or better yet, spread a faith you founded.

4. Try to make diplomatic blocks. Work with people with the same religion, or peaceful people (Mansa Musa, Gandhi). Or people who arent sharing your border (so that you dont get the "our close borders causes tension"). Having allies and removing potential enemies will help you when war breaks out.

5. If Im attacked and Im not ready to defend, I whip and draft until I feel like I can survive. Dont be afraid to switch civics (especially if you're spiritual) to adapt to the current situation.

6. Ive found that wars go easier if you can bring another civ in to fight against the civ you are warring with. A two-front war divides the ai, who doesnt seem to react to a two-front war well at all. And you'll get diplomatic points for sharing "our mutual struggle".

7. Of course a lot of this is irrelevant if you cant get past the early game. One adjustment I made from Prince to Monarch is chaging what I build in my first couple cities. In my first city, I used to always click on worker or settler. On Monarch, I almost never do. I grow my capital to pop 3 (or 2 if I need a settler asap to settle land for a particular resource) usually by building stone henge (i build stonehenge every game unless im creative), THEN I make that settler. My second city I usually build a troop then a settler...sometimes Ill grow my second city to pop 2 before grabbing that settler. Point being...Ive found that the early game is much more effective if I grow my cities (at least the first couple) before I build workers and settlers. Usually 6 cities is the most I can build (if the ai is slow to move in) before Im boxed in.

8. I got my first couple wins on Monarch after getting clobbered by coming in with a plan that involves picking a particular Civ. Choose a civ that would help deal with your flaws...financial or organized if its money, creative to help your borders and the quick libraries are great, expansive's cheaper workers are awesome. After a couple wins, youll be able to do random if thats your thing.

9. Like others mentioned, tweak your settings a bit. Make Pangea to help spread your faith, or continents to lessen your neighbors. Turn off barbs if theyre a royal pain (though people think that helps the ai). Pick a lower amount of civs to play against.


Well...that turned out longer then I thought it would be. Anyone with any corrections on stuff I said would be appreciated. Happy civing.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

If you are at Prince level, and you are going to use this as practice, make sure to have some Tylenol and Tums next to your computer.

The first time I tried this, I was laughing too hard at the end of it to take the drugs.

 

[riapopia]

Definitely some good stuff here. Couple of follow up questions-

1. Even if I find a weak neightbor to pick on, that won't do anything to slow down the other ai civs right? What has happened a few times to me is that I'll slowly eat into a neighbor but essentially ignore the other civs. Over time, one ai civ will grow into a superpower much larger than me. Should I be bribing ai civs to attack each other all the time? Does that work?

2. Some called out my tech order. I tend to research the next tech that actually opens up a worker action or building that I need immediately. BAsically I don't want to research anything "for the future". I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the ai doesn't have and doesn't place a priority on. Mistake?

3. Diplomacy. I'm convinced this is the part of the game I'm worst at! I like to found a religion and I always make my founded religion (usually Islam) my state religion. Of course everyone hates me when I do this late in the game. Should I not feel forced to switch my state religion to one I founded?
I don't do a good job of building 1-2 strong allies. I end up with everyone minorly annoyed at me which seems useless. Better to have 1-2 friend right? But executing on this is tough- religion seems to be my mistake.

Anyhow, thanks for all the help!

 

[Meatbuster]

1. But it will give you more land to help you grow faster in the long run. You don't need to bribe all the time, just once (if you can) is enough to damage a relationship to increase the probability of a second war in the future. There's no worry if HC or Gandhi becomes a superpower. If you can claw up at least to second place, you may be able to win by Diplomacy if you relationships are right. Or if you need to win via space, winning the Internet + Space Elevator usually wins entire games.

2. Just research vertically (instead of everything in the same age) and eventually you'll have something the AI doesn't have. Also, as you go up in difficulty, you're not usually researching something that you NEED, but rather something that is good to TRADE with. Popular techs to trade in the Middle Age - Renaissance Era (when players are usually able to catch up) are Code of Laws, Philosophy, Compass, Optics, Civil Service, Nationalism.

3. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and NOT run your founded religion. Sure it will pump the rival's shrine income to have their religion, but it's usually better to have peace with your neighbors.
Also try NOT running a religion for prolonged periods. Later in the game, you can usually tell who your allies will be around the time of either Civil Service or Scientific Method. When that happens, pick the religion of your best allies, and stick with it until the end of the game.

 

[Meatbuster]

Another suggestion for practice is to play larger maps in the difficulty you can beat (in this case Prince) and smaller maps in the difficulty you can't beat.

 

[riapopia]

Thanks for the tips all. I'll try playing on a smaller map and seeing how I do. BTW, I've been playing Carthage since I felt Financial + Charismatic was the strongest pair of traits. The UU seems useless and the UB only marginal. That said, I still felt Carthage was a good choice to move up a level with.

Sound reasonable?

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Carthage's traits are two of the best. The UU is decent, but you wont be able to make an army solely of them. They will be great against swords and axes, though. As for the UB, its nice if you have costal cities, but if youre like me most of your cities are inland. I think in spite of this, Hannibal is one of the best leaders.

About religion, Islam is the hardest to spread because its the last religion. And by then when you adopt Islam everyone else is something else...so everyone gets upset. Ive found if I can grab the early religions (hindu, buddhist, judaism) its far easier to spread because at that time no one has a faith. In my games it looks like the ai guns for buddhism first. I can pick up hinduism more often then not, even if I dont start with mysticism.

 

[cabert]

Thanks for the tips all. I'll try playing on a smaller map and seeing how I do. BTW, I've been playing Carthage since I felt Financial + Charismatic was the strongest pair of traits. The UU seems useless and the UB only marginal. That said, I still felt Carthage was a good choice to move up a level with.

Sound reasonable?

can you beat prince with any leader?

My guess is to pick a reasonnable not quite common leader to avoid focusing too hard on the specifics for a leader.
Try Isabella.
Expansive gives you cheap granaries and heath = no worries about fresh water for city placement and fast growth.
If you play warlords, you also benefit from a bonus for building workers = even faster growth.
Spiritual is arguably the strongest trait around.
A good mastery of this trait leads to the best understanding of civics which is a big leveraging domain.

 

[riapopia]

I haven't tried every leader on Prince but have won with 4-5 different ones now. All spread across the attributes except maybe Imperialistic.

I started a new game now on Monarch and seem to be doing better. It seems obvious but really focusing on maximizing food early seems key. I used to stress cottages early but it seems like farms early and later conversion to cottages might be stronger. Obviously there are tradeoffs but so far so good.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Nope, I'm not a pro, but I like to think of myself as a veteran. I'm still learning how to win Emperor so pro isn't the right term yet.

Keep your victory condition in mind when you play. Focus your play in winning if you want to win. You will probably be unable to keep all your victory options open for half the game like you can on Prince. If you want to win, you need to choose how then work to that result. Delaying that choice will help you lose.

Sometimes victory conditions are incompatible. You cant be belligerent and invade everyone and expect any help to achieve a diplomatic victory for instance. If you are the only person to vote for you, a domination victory will be your goal. If you want to win, you have to work toward the win you want. It just gets tighter the higher the level.

If you go for domination, press any military advantage. Being nice to everyone won't help you much and the game might be over before infantry.

For Diplomatic, pick your allies, turn them against any likely opponent, and play nice to get their votes. For cultural, get your three culture generator cities up and running fast enough to beat the AI to a victory.

And so on. Focus on a chosen victory once the path becomes clear, and you will probably make it.