Wind/Nuclear/Solar/Hydro Plant ideas

[wobuffet]

This thread is for discussion of how to meaningfully differentiate late-game production plants.

What's the problem?
Plants come very late in the game, so they must be very powerful to be worth the time and hammers to build them. But if they only help Production and can be stacked in a single City, they'll produce an insane amount of hammers and trivialize any Production requirements in the lategame.

So we need some effects for these buildings that are more varied than simply giving Production (i.e., straight-up hammers).

(As G says,

Spoiler :

Because, if they’re production only, they either need to be insanely powerful to recoup investment or they're worthless. And allowing them to stack at that power trivializes late game production.

G

)

Current Effects
Here are the Plants in question, with their current (4-20) effects:

• Hydro Plant (Requires Aluminum; City must be on a River):
  • +2 for every River tile, +5.
• Wind Plant (Requires Aluminum; City must not be on a River):
  • +2 on every Grassland and Plains tile, +5
• Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):
  • +50%, +5.
• Solar Plant (City must be on or next to Desert):
  • +50%, +5.

All the Plants now also do this:

• 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
• Only one "Plant" per City.

My Proposal
To start off, here's my proposal (new ideas in red):

• Get rid of flat Urbanization Unhappiness reduction.
• Hydro Plant (Requires Aluminum; City must be on a River):
  • +2 for every River tile, +5
  • Engineers in this City get +1 Great Engineer Point and generate no Urbanization Unhappiness
  • Gameplay idea: Hydro Plants are best if you want to run a lot of Engineers.
  • Thematic idea: Like bridges, dams/hydro plants are marvels of civic engineering.
• Wind Plant (Requires Aluminum) [remove no-River lock]:
  • +2 on every Grassland and Plains tile, +5
  • -15% Building Maintenance costs in this City
  • Gameplay idea: Wind Plants are best for infrastructure-dense Cities. Extends and scales up the benefits of the Windmill by making Building-dense Cities much cheaper to maintain.
  • Thematic idea: Wind power's fuel is free and therefore not subject to price volatility. [source]
• Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):
  • +10 [was +5 +50%]
  • +75% Production toward Units during Golden Ages
  • 20 Instant Golden Age Points when a Unit is bought or constructed in this City, scaling with Era
  • Gameplay idea: Nuclear Plants are best for Civs focusing on producing lots of Units. Warmongers will face an interesting dynamic re: Happiness: keep conquering or peace out and focus on Golden Ages?
  • Thematic idea: Nuclear research, of these options, is historically the most tied to warfare (see the Manhattan Project).
  • (Alternative idea: Each Nuclear Plant reduces costs c5production:/) of Atomic Bombs and Nuclear Missiles by 10% (on a Standard-size map), up to 50%.)
• Solar Plant (City must be on or next to Desert):
  • + 1 per 3 Citizens [was +5 +50%]
  • 100 Instant Gold and Production when a new Technology is discovered
  • Gameplay idea: Solar Plants are best for high-Population Cities in Civs focusing on Science progress.
  • Thematic idea: As with wind, sunlight (a solar plant's "fuel") is free. But sunlight is less reliable than wind power, which we approximate in-game by giving sporadic (upon new Techs) instead of per-turn Benefits.

All numbers are subject to scaling/adjustment, of course.

 

[a1nosugar]

Just a thought. Do we need them at all?

If we do, I think we need a global warming mechanism to place pressure on developing civs to avoid coal/oil plants.

Not that I want to see disappearing hexes endgame

 

[Moi Magnus]

Firstly, I've always found very weird that there was no oil-based plant. I know we don't want to add new buildings, but still...

Secondly, I liked the suggestion in the main thread "all plants give electricity, so they should have a common bonus". This bonus can be anything, as electricity does help everything, including culture and science.

Thirdly, I would like to point that no major city in world doesn't have a plant of some kind nearby. So not having plant in a city should give rise to major unhappiness problems.

So here is a suggestion:

1) Every plant give -2 urbanisation unhappiness, and +1 yield to specialist (of their specialties). Since every urban activity is better with electricity.

2) Hydro plants give +2 tourism, +2 gold and +2 great merchant points on river tiles.

3) Nuclear plant give +3 science, +2 great scientific points on tiles adjacent to the city.

4) Solar plants give +2 science, +2 tourism, +2 great engineer points on deserts tiles.

5) Wind plants, I don't have any inspiration right now.

 

[azum4roll]

Flooding caused by global warming would be a cool mechanic if it wasn't computationally expensive.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Hydro and Wind Plants not giving +50% seems like the biggest problem already.

 

[Stalker0]

I think nuclear is fine. It’s the big production boosting plant which is worth the price tag. I think that one stays as is.

For hydro, the sore thumb is the food. Food is worthless at this point in the game imo.

Considering the lateness of these buildings, it may be best to think of instant yields (similar to zoo) instead of continuous ones. Give a big surge of science, culture, +1 pop, that sort of thing

 

[Rekk]

For hydro, the sore thumb is the food. Food is worthless at this point in the game imo.

Another issue is the huge variance in the number usable river tiles.

 

[FaarmAnimal]

OPs proposal looks promising but surely the solar plant should give a production boost to each desert tile. That is where they would be.

 

[Legen]

IRL, these four plants are attractive for their lack of CO2 emission, compared to their alternatives. Nuclear plants were heavily promoted for that before Fukushima, in fact. And that usually means political pressure from the ambientalist populace, both domestically and internationally, as they tend to be very vocal in political and international affairs. As I see it, we could have it translate into:

• lower unhappiness or bonus happiness
  
• tourism
• a new World Congress proposal boosting these plants
  
• more influence with city-states

In the lategame, the usual pressing matters tend to be happiness (mainly wide and warmongers), science, culture/tourism and city-state influence. I think any way to make those plants contribute with these should make them relevant, even if the bonus production isn't particularly strong.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Although I agree with Stalker0 that Nuclear and Solar Plants are currently just about fine, I think giving each Plant its own flavor and letting them boost Specialists in their own way gives them late-game utility without just giving them instant yields. My suggestions in red:

• Hydro Plant (Requires Aluminum; City must be on a River):
  • +2 for every River and Lake tile, +5 .
  • Specialists produce +1 and +1 of their primary yield, and 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
  • Notes: Dams have historically boosted the safety of living near rivers/lakes they are on, also boosting economy and tourism (see: Hoover Dam, Mansfield Dam, etc.). Makes Hydro Plant better choice for Cultural Victory.
• Wind Plant (Requires Aluminum):
  • +2 on every Grassland and Plains tile, +5 .
  • Engineers produce +3 and 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
    
  • Notes: Non-River requirement removed since all Plants are now mutually exclusive. Boosts Engineer Specialists and output compared to other plants, making it the more "generalist" choice.
• Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):
  • +50%, +7 .
  • Scientists produce +3 and 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
  • Notes: Nuclear Plants now generate more raw than the other Plants regardless of terrain and boost Science Specialists. Plus use of Uranium over Aluminum makes Plant better choice for Science Victory.
• Solar Plant (City must be on or next to Desert):
  • +33%, +2 for every Desert tile, +5 .
  • Specialists produce +2 and +2 of their primary yield, and 3 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
    
  • Notes: Desert Plants are the most terrain dependent and desert cities tend to have less workable tiles and rely more on specialists. Solar Plant better supports desert cities with large, late-game populations at the cost of compared to the other Plants. Are generalist enough that Nuclear or Hydro may be a better option depending on desired Victory.

 

[Bromar1]

I think 4 mutually exclusive buildings with different requirements makes it too complicated to add unique effects like this. It would be much easier if they had uniform terrain and resource requirements because that turn 1 decision to settle on or off freshwater shouldn't be factoring into our important super late game buildings.
I also think it would make sense to cut down to 3 plant buildings, 4 mutually exclusive buildings is gonna be a very precarious balance

 

[gwennog]

just an idea, if power plants produce electricity, it's logically brought in all the country. Each plant should be exclusive in a city but give a common bonus to all the cities in Urbanization Unhappiness and development (production, culture, science, ...)

 

[FaarmAnimal]

I think it is worthwhile to consider the importance of plants in human history. They should be represented as the world changing advances they were.

I suggest a massive hike in costs of units and buildings of the late era forcing players to build plants. No more talk of them not being needed - make them essential.

 

[pineappledan]

I kinda like @Mad Madigan's proposal, but it requires new code, so I'm going to try to do a riff on his that doesn't need anything new. @HungryForFood implemented a new code which might come in handy here.

• Hydro Plant (Requires Aluminum; City must be on a River):
  • +2 for every River and Lake tile, +5
  • Provides 2 Power Strategic Resource
  • 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
  • On Completion, 10% of the Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into GEngineer points
• Wind Plant (Requires Aluminum):
  • +2 on every Grassland and Plains tile, +5
  • Provides 1 Power Strategic Resource
    
  • 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
    
  • On Completion, 10% of the Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into GScientist points
• Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):
  • +50%, +10 .
  • Provides 1 Power Strategic Resource
  • 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
  • On Completion, 5% of the Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into GEngineer and GScientist points
• Solar Plant (City must be on or next to Desert):
  • +33%, +1 for every Desert tile, +5 .
  • Provides 2 Power Strategic Resource
  • 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
    
  • On Completion, 5% of the Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into GEngineer GScientist, and GDiplomat points

Power Strategic Resource:

• Generated by Plants, used in the construction of special buildings and Units:
• Units that require Power:
  • Strategic Bomber
  • XCom ( CS increased to 80 in light of new restriction)
• Spaceship Factory requires 1 Power
• Spaceship Parts require 2 Power each (completion of spaceship part frees up Power, but creates a bottleneck for military power and parallel production of spaceships)

So Hydro/Wind are the also-rans with Aluminum. Wind plant gives better yields and has no tile limitations, but hydro is more power. Nuclear is the raw Production dynamo, if you have the Uranium to spare, while Solar gives the most GPPs

 

[Legen]

What's the problem?
Plants come very late in the game, so they must be very powerful to be worth the time and hammers to build them. But if they only help Production and can be stacked in a single City, they'll produce an insane amount of hammers and trivialize any Production requirements in the lategame.

Could we just move these plants earlier in the tree? They could come earlier with weaker yields, and receive boosts from Information Era technologies as needed to stay relevant. That way, they don't need to be that powerful when built.

 

[Stalker0]

I also think it would make sense to cut down to 3 plant buildings, 4 mutually exclusive buildings is gonna be a very precarious balance

This is a really good point. Why do we need Hydro and Wind anyway? Why not just have a "Power Plant" building. Remove the river bonus, and just give it a bonus that its prudent.

 

[pineappledan]

I would prefer to keep all 4. Hell, I would actually advocate for adding a 5th: Tidal Plant, which gives bonus for all coast/Ocean tiles, so we have good tile coverage for those island cities.

Tidal Plant (Requires Aluminum):

• Unlocked at Ecology (same tech as Solar Plant)
• +2 on every Coast and Ocean tile, +5
• Provides 1 Power Strategic Resource
  
• 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
  
• On Completion, 10% of the Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into GMerchant points

 

[Bhawb]

I would prefer to keep all 4. Hell, I would actually advocate for adding a 5th: Tidal Plant, which gives bonus for all coast/Ocean tiles, so we have good tile coverage for those island cities.

I'd argue for this as well. Give a plant for the various relevant tiles with Nuclear being a last resort that gives moderate yields but requires Uranium.

 

[FaarmAnimal]

This is a really good point. Why do we need Hydro and Wind anyway? Why not just have a "Power Plant" building. Remove the river bonus, and just give it a bonus that its prudent.

I prefer the idea for tile-based power plants. It gives the player strategic choices and should be explored further. Player choice is always good.

 

[doublex55]

I dont think we need to add a new mechanic but i do like the idea of a tidal plant for island or coastal cities