Windmill, watermill, workshop, lumbermill

[Snovvdog]

I always build Lumbermills, they're awesome imo, especially with railroads.
Occasionally build watermills, but only randomly when I don't know what improvement to use or late in game.
Never build workshops, hate them as they take away the food...

And nope I hate state property, I like coorporations .

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Never build workshops, hate them as they take away the food...

Post-chemistry (in caste system) a city with a couple food resources and a couple farms can viably run 12-13 grassland workshops totaling 48 - 52 per turn (not to mention multipliers like Forge, etc). The power of grassland workshops can never be overstated even without State Property OR Caste System (since grassland workshops still receive the same yield as a grassland hill with mine)

After replaceable parts, plains watermills become more viable as they have the same tile yield as a riverside, mined grassland hill (1 3 1). Replaceable Parts is the tech watermark where all the mills become much more worth it. They allow good production tile yields without giving up food (like workshops), health (keeping forests), and receive some commerce bonuses. After electricity watermills and windmills even get a commerce bonus (1 3 3) and that's not even mentioning the State Property food bonus, but I figure I'll leave that yield out since you wouldn't use it anyway.

 

[madscientist]

For the record, this thread has motivated me to do an RPC on these production improvements. The next RPC is Lenin and will focus early on farms/mines, but shift to workshops/watermills/lumbermills/windmills as technology allows. It will be a good test to see if it's doable, and I would love to see someone shadow it as a cottage spammer.

 

[Fluxx]

@Mad

Every single economy is viable in this game, as long as you do it in proper ways.

I should advice against not placing ANY cottages in the early BC's, since you would shoot yourself in your foot more then proving a point.
Unless you are going to run 2 scientists in each city, till you can run a proper GF farm.

 

[madscientist]

@Mad

Every single economy is viable in this game, as long as you do it in proper ways.

I should advice against not placing ANY cottages in the early BC's, since you would shoot yourself in your foot more then proving a point.
Unless you are going to run 2 scientists in each city, till you can run a proper GF farm.

I understand what your saying and agree. However, I like to prove points sometimes!

 

[Fluxx]

I understand what your saying and agree. However, I like to prove points sometimes!

Well good luck with it mate.

I will be reading your sessions as always

 

[bestbrian]

For the record, this thread has motivated me to do an RPC on these production improvements. The next RPC is Lenin and will focus early on farms/mines, but shift to workshops/watermills/lumbermills/windmills as technology allows. It will be a good test to see if it's doable, and I would love to see someone shadow it as a cottage spammer.

Sounds pretty neat; since I'm laid up, I'll have time to check it out.

What mod are you using for Lenin, btw? LoR?

 

[madscientist]

Sounds pretty neat; since I'm laid up, I'll have time to check it out.

What mod are you using for Lenin, btw? LoR?

No mod. I will likely play as the Russians but with either Fred's or Mehmeds traits. It's RPC, so the story is more important to me than the mod.

 

[hal08]

I start off my production cities mining the hills and farming grassland. I can then whip the unhappy, build infrastructure, build wealth, units, or even run scientists. Once I change to caste to get my GP farm going I will start putting down workshops, even though they are only 3 yield tiles at this point, in preparation for guilds which bumps them to 4 yield. Once chemistry comes along you get great 5 yield tiles, and SP grants an amazing 6 yield if you go that route.

After RP, I start adding watermills and windmills. At this point it's simply a matter of mixing and matching all the improvements in my production cities to grow to happy/health cap while minimizing the number of farms. Of course railroad and biology open up new possibilities for extra and so more changes may be needed to maximize production.


The last few games I have become very fond of the based renaissance war. I have 1 GP farm, 1-2 commerce cities (capital preferred), and the rest production based. It allows for an amazing military to steamroll your neighbor(s).

 

[dalamb]

Ya, you go through all that trouble and get a 4-5 turn improvement on things.

I don't see why it's "all that trouble" to covert to windmills or watermills late in the game: in mid-game I usually find there are plenty of turns when my workers have little to do, so they can pre-build the replacements until just before they're finished, then in the late game can finish in 1 turn. So right after, say, RP, you can suddenly have a lot of highly productive mills replacing earlier improvements.

 

[Gorey]

Never build workshops, hate them as they take away the food...

wow. simply... wow.

IMO, it's probably the best improvement, even without SP.

look at it this way, it's almost like terra-forming. a flat tile can be turned into it's equivalent hilled mine version.

how is that a bad thing? even with the -1 food to that tile, who wouldn't want to add an extra hill or two in cities that lack production... or add lots of hills to their production centers?


by the same token.. brown tiles can almost always be turned into "grassland mine" by the use of "mill". waterside plains->watermill. plains hill-> windmill. plains forest->lumbermill.

flat brown tiles not next to a river and with no forest, should either get a cottage or workshop. depends on your city and your food situation. never farm a brown tile.

 

[Iranon]

I strongly dislike workshops without State Property and will look for other ways to burn excess food... especially Slavery. I might build a few if I'm in Environmentalism and want windmills on every available tile or I have a bloated food corporation and really don't know what to do with all the food.

 

[Dirk1302]

^In cities with a big food surplus whipping gives about the same return as using the food to sustain brown tile workshops. For really short term production blasts it's a lot better as you can whip a size 15 city time after time. if you have enough happy resources or are running HR you can get a renaissance unit out every third turn or so without ruining the city.

I like workshops since there frequently are some cities that don't have a big food surplus +6 for example. They may need to work some valuable tiles like silks/cottages etc. With whipping grow back times are substantial and you won't be working the valuable tiles since you will need to grow back on farms,but those cities can sustain 3 brown tile workshops and have fair production this way. Frequently a GA is started around 1000 AD, in this case workshops really shine.

Without specific examples it's a bit hard to say what is best. Shops have the advantage that they cut down hard on the whipping MM. You need to adjust your tech path slightly though sometimes self researching guilds to take a maximum profit. Shops are awesome after communism, in games where i plan for many shops i try not to build too many monasteries and wonders that enpower religious buildings since i'll go for SM (through trade)-> communism asap.

 

[noto2]

For the record, this thread has motivated me to do an RPC on these production improvements. The next RPC is Lenin and will focus early on farms/mines, but shift to workshops/watermills/lumbermills/windmills as technology allows. It will be a good test to see if it's doable, and I would love to see someone shadow it as a cottage spammer.

Unless you run specialists that's not gonna work. How many times am I going to say this..."pure" economies rarely work. The game is designed to reward players who have a well balanced empire, with commerce, specialists, and hammers. Specializing a few cities makes sense, for the rest of your cities you are better off making them hybrid - which means making them have a source of hammers, food, and commerce.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I use 'em all. Watermills, windmills, workshops, lumbermills - tundra forest should ALWAYS be lumbermilled. The only time it isn't is when you can build a watermill, i guess.

 

[Aless133]

Forest on river gives -1 commerce in comparison of chopped flat area (Forest = 0, flatland = 1) - right?
And Lumbermill/FReserve returns this 1 and gives 1 commerce in forest?

 

[Aless133]

Workshops with SP are equal to Mines with RR.
Workshops with SP and Caste System are better (+1 hammer) then Mines with RR.
Am I right? (Guilds and Chemistry learned)

 

[NihilZero]

Workshops with SP are equal to Mines with RR.
Workshops with SP and Caste System are better (+1 hammer) then Mines with RR.
Am I right? (Guilds and Chemistry learned)

Not quite. A non-SP workshop with Guilds and Chemsitry is the same as a non-railroad mine. Add Caste and it is equal to a Railroad mine. Add SP, and you get +1 food as well, which of course means you can work more of them.

Forest on river gives -1 commerce in comparison of chopped flat area (Forest = 0, flatland = 1) - right?
And Lumbermill/FReserve returns this 1 and gives 1 commerce in forest?

That's right.

 

[Aless133]

Not quite. A non-SP workshop with Guilds and Chemsitry is the same as a non-railroad mine.

Workshop (with Guilds and Chemsitry) = -1 food +3 prod
Mine (w/o RR) = +2 prod
???

Add Caste and it is equal to a Railroad mine.

Workshop (with Guilds and Chemsitry + Caste) = -1 food +4 prod
Mine (w RR) = +3 prod

Add SP, and you get +1 food as well, which of course means you can work more of them.

Workshop +4 prod, Mine +3 prod.

What I'm missing?

 

[CivConVict]

You need a hill to build a mine and a hill means +1 hammer -1 food.

grassland with workshop (Guilds, Chemistry) = 1 food, 3 hammers
grassland hill with mine = 1 food, 3 hammers