Without Atheism the game would remain incomplete. A patch is anticipated I think!!!

[mitsho]

Beside all the arguments:
Civ has not religions, religions are theological knowledge and faith, it is something very personal. Now, what civIV has, is CHURCHES. Churches is the administration of a religion, how it is organised, hierarchical or not, what exactly the belief is, if there are priests, monks, nuns, etc. who take taxes for them and provide something for it, if there are missionaries etc. That has ritually nothing to do with what the faith exactly is. It's just the administration.

That's why Atheism is no viable alternative. It never was organised in such a way, but rather an individual belief, and thus, it represents exactly the "Paganism" thing of the game. And thus, I belief that for the latter game (up from Industrial age or so), Paganism should be renamed to Individualism, Secularism or Atheism. Fine, Done it, happy?

m

 

[frekk]

And thus, I belief that for the latter game (up from Industrial age or so), Paganism should be renamed to Individualism, Secularism or Atheism. Fine, Done it, happy?

No.

Here's what will make me happy (and what, I imagine, will in fact be how it works):

-Atheism is not a religion, and thus is not represented as one.

-Paganism covers the gamut of indigenous, non-major religions, from the animism of early hunter-gatherers to the pantheons of the Greek and Norse to nationalistic religions as in Egypt or Rome. These would be susceptible to conversion and suffer a cultural disadvanatage against the major religions. It would mostly disappear by the late Renaissance at the latest.

-Secularism and state atheism (as in communism) would be represented as features of government, as they should be. It would be one of the values you choose in creating your government, on a slider ranging from a sort of theocratic fundamentalism to state atheism, with secularism as a happy medium. At first, choices would be restricted to the theocratic end of the scale, as you advanced you would have more ability to choose to set this value towards the secular levels and at some late stage at the state atheism end of the scale. At the extreme of state atheism, religion would be "frozen" - your citizens would stay whatever religion they were, could not be converted, and you would suffer no effects from religion (either positive or negative). Why I say this is that as soon as communism collapsed, Russia became Orthodox as it had been before ... so you would need somehow to preserve in the game that heritage. Your communists would be Orthodox culture, but "not practicing" as they say. So, every citizen in the game would have a religion (pagan or major relig) but this would not necessarily represent practicing members so much as cultural flavour or heritage.

 

[mitsho]

-Secularism and state atheism (as in communism) would be represented as features of government, as they should be. It would be one of the values you choose in creating your government, on a slider ranging from a sort of theocratic fundamentalism to state atheism, with secularism as a happy medium. At first, choices would be restricted to the theocratic end of the scale, as you advanced you would have more ability to choose to set this value towards the secular levels and at some late stage at the state atheism end of the scale.

Ever heard of civics? This is simulated by the religion civic, although not as detailled as you want.

m

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Few points on Atheism

1. Atheism is not a religion or belief system it is a Group of religions or belief systems (ie like Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all Monotheistic.. Marxist Communism, Secular Humanism, and Ancient Animism are all Atheistic)

2. Some belief systems could not be included as one of the seven game religions, because of that they are included as 'No' religion or Pagan. This is the Only religion that is different from tho others in that it lacks structures or spreading ability (although I believe it's quite probable that a city could lose its Religion reverting back to 'Paganism' rather than just chnging to a new one.)

So any belief System that is not encompassed by one of the seven would be quite capable of 'spreading' (except it could spread from anywhere)

3. There will probably be Civics options that discourage your cities from becoming religious or encourage religious cities to become nonreligious/Pagan (Primitivism and Pacifism come to mind)

 

[frekk]

Ever heard of civics? This is simulated by the religion civic, although not as detailled as you want.

m

The way they have it now, from what I can gather, the whole game will be nothing but a holy war every time ... there will be no secularist phase per se, just "freedom of religion" which does not do justice to secularism's role in history. It almost seems as if the game is being used as some sort of overt ideological vehicle for a bizarre revisionist interpretation of the history, but I will wait and see.

 

[Markus6]

Freedom of religion as i see it would be a good model of the U.S.A's and the U.K's current stance on religion. What secularist state's stance do you think hasn't been represented yet?

 

[Urederra]

That's why Atheism is no viable alternative. It never was organised in such a way, but rather an individual belief, and thus, it represents exactly the "Paganism" thing of the game. And thus, I belief that for the latter game (up from Industrial age or so), Paganism should be renamed to Individualism, Secularism or Atheism. Fine, Done it, happy?

m

I am happy with that, mitsho, but some people are not. They regard themselves as atheists, but in fact they are antireligious, thus it, people that prosecute religious people. In fact the mod suitable for them would be an antireligious alternative.

That is why they put USSR as an example of an atheist country. It was´t. It was antireligious, they prosecuted all the other religions because communism was a sort of religion by itself. So they have to get rid of the other religions, to avoid competence.

So, if anybody wants to make a mod with an antireligious alternative, I am fine with it, I am not going to install it , but please, don`t call it atheism.

 

[King Alexander]

I said what I had to say about including Religion in another thread, so, no point to repeat myself.

What's even more disgusting for me, is the including of missionaries: it's just unbelievable! Try to convert other people so one can satisfy he's OWN EGO about believing in the ONE, TRUE, ONLY god(where all the other billions in the world are FOOLS believing in other gods).

I'd prefer MUCH MORE to focus on REAL(and not fake) culture: Advances, Art(which, Wonders would fall in), Human Rights(to me, it's a meter of how advanced is a modern country; otherwise, they're barbarians), etc... This way, enemy cities would join you, been impressed of how CIVILISED one Civ is, and not how THEOCRATIC the Civ is.

 

[frekk]

Freedom of religion as i see it would be a good model of the U.S.A's and the U.K's current stance on religion. What secularist state's stance do you think hasn't been represented yet?

Secularism is alot bigger than just freedom of religion. Freedom of religion doesn't really convey the full historical effects of secularism on society, just one particular effect. Aside from that, a secular state is capable of oppressing a particular religion and restricting that freedom, so they are not synonymous.

 

[Markus6]

Great tolerance for peoples beliefs Alex. How do you expect people to respect yours? Has there been no religious art, wonders or great buidlings? Do religious teachings not give any guidance on human rights?

 

[Markus6]

Secularism is alot bigger than just freedom of religion. Freedom of religion doesn't really convey the full historical effects of secularism on society, just one particular effect. Aside from that, a secular state is capable of oppressing a particular religion and restricting that freedom, so they are not synonymous.

I've already said somewhere that I think the option to oppress religions (individually or all) should be in the game. Hence the freedom of religion option would be the secular civic with no religions repressed. Do you think anything else needs adding?

 

[Volstag]

When are people going to get over the implementation of religion in Civ IV? It's a game mechanic, nothing more! There's very little bearing between the in-game religions and the "real" religions. If you want Atheism so bad, just pretend one of them is "Atheism" and go from there. Or, better yet, just mod the names.

It just amazes me what a big deal people make this out to be.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I said what I had to say about including Religion in another thread, so, no point to repeat myself.

What's even more disgusting for me, is the including of missionaries: it's just unbelievable! Try to convert other people so one can satisfy he's OWN EGO about believing in the ONE, TRUE, ONLY god(where all the other billions in the world are FOOLS believing in other gods).

I'd prefer MUCH MORE to focus on REAL(and not fake) culture: Advances, Art(which, Wonders would fall in), Human Rights(to me, it's a meter of how advanced is a modern country; otherwise, they're barbarians), etc... This way, enemy cities would join you, been impressed of how CIVILISED one Civ is, and not how THEOCRATIC the Civ is.

Well what's disgusting for me is the inclusion of food, think focusing on managing population through starvation, as well as cheapening people by modeling them as an accumulation of biological material. I'd much prefer to focus on Real things like trade and warfare.

Sarcastic rant ended


The one thing we DO need as a religion civic is a civic that suppresses all religions. This Cannot be Freedom of Religion, Organized Religion, or Theocracy

This means that if they have a 'Suppress all religions' it is either Primitivism or Pacifism.

Since we don't know the actual effects of either of those, then it is most likely that one if not both of them act to suppress all religions.

 

[King Alexander]

The one thing we DO need as a religion civic is a civic that suppresses all religions. This Cannot be Freedom of Religion, Organized Religion, or Theocracy

This means that if they have a 'Suppress all religions' it is either Primitivism or Pacifism.

Since we don't know the actual effects of either of those, then it is most likely that one if not both of them act to suppress all religions.

Well, call it anyway you want. I don't mind at all, as along as there's no Religion choice(I won't argue about characterisations).

Anyway, I'll probably mod the game and maybe stop playing in SG's.

Great tolerance for peoples beliefs Alex.

Thank you.

How do you expect people to respect yours?

I don't seek any respect of people who're afraid of God(s). If they were just respecting God(s)- as one respects his father, but he's not a puppet of his father, and also has his own free will to decide anything he wants- that would be fine by me, but fear is the only factor for believing in the major religions: who wants to lose the paradise and/or also 50 virgins, somewhere, sometime? Is there anyone here who wants to burn in hell?
F E A R

I don't need any Gods to tell me what to do: a society always had rules, written or unwritten(so, if you ask me, I agree with the basic principles of many religions, but as I've already said, that already existed hundrends of years before).

Has there been no religious art, wonders or great buidlings? Do religious teachings not give any guidance on human rights?

Of course there has been religious art, especially in music, but let's just not forget how many wonderful things were destroyed by priests because it wan't in agreement with their religion.

 

[Louis XXIV]

The way they have it now, from what I can gather, the whole game will be nothing but a holy war every time ... there will be no secularist phase per se, just "freedom of religion" which does not do justice to secularism's role in history. It almost seems as if the game is being used as some sort of overt ideological vehicle for a bizarre revisionist interpretation of the history, but I will wait and see.

Isn't it possible to set state relgion to non (using the option to change state religion) and than have no religious tollerance to persecute all religions not your own (every single religion)?

 

[Phoenix_56721]

I don't like rewriting the dictionary to suit preconceptions. The dictionary is there to provide immovable anchors, not wishy-washy buoys that one might move around at will, to suit or confuse. It is not a tool to be employed for obfuscation, but rather to provide clarity and solid landmarks in communication.

It's not really involved at all. Atheism is not a religion, and atheism is not a synonym for paganism, except by the most convoluted subjective contexts. To be synonyms, the terms would have to match in their most common contexts, not in their utterly least common contexts. It would be very very simple if people wouldn't semantically contort the language to try to fit square pegs into round holes.

Listen this is only my humble opinion, this is what this forum is for to Express your opinion! If you disagree with me fine! I refer you to my signature. Peace Out

 

[REX GRACCHVS]

Isn't it possible to set state relgion to non (using the option to change state religion) and than have no religious tollerance to persecute all religions not your own (every single religion)?

thats the kind of thing i want, the ability to set STATE RELIGION:NONE and possibly a persecute religions option...

but as people say, atheism isnt a religion, but i would mod it into the game as one when i got it...
or possibly communism... even though that isnt a religion, (please dont attack me for it, i am a commy, i just want to see how it works in the game)
imagine, the holy city for communism could be where marx died, the wall of the communards, or lenins body... it could spread around the world, converting people to the proletarian cause then creating revolution... imagine, you could recreate the paris commune: communism could get realy strong in paris, a war could start and more peole go over to it, the city revolts to create its own civ, a commy civ, then the french army takes back the city and institutes PERSECUTE RELIGION:COMMUNISM, thus representing the massacre and such afterwards...


id realy like that...

 

[Greek Stud]

Im not here to say I am right nor that any of you are right. But I found this thread very interesting and want to point out some things. My background is in researching Religion and Government and Philosophy. Im not an expert at all, but would like to share some insight that I might have read or experienced.

Pope and Patriarch are the exact same word, just different languages. Pope is Latin and Patriarch is Greek.

Atheism is a belief in no God.

I have noticed that as posters that have faith write and posters that dont have faith write that they experience trouble pointing out exactly what it is they are trying to say. Both sides have perfect ideas of what they want to say, but when it comes to writing it down, your words do not represent exactly the perfect idea it is you have in your mind.

Atheism as a civic option would work like the number Zero. Every other number other than Zero has a value in the realm of religious thought while Atheism is separate from religion.

Defining words from the dictionary does not represent the final, concrete and last word unless you have made the dictionary your Holy Book, or the perfect Word of God and infallable. Diction, as it works in linguistics, functions as a changing collection of representations that sounds represent as ideas in our minds. Aristotle has proven that the ideas and thoughts in our minds can never be perfectly represented in anything we create. That is why humans function under religion, because they share a belief that there is perfection, but we as humans can not create (these ideas and objects) the way that the perfect image functions in our minds.

Communism in Russia persecuted the Russian Orthodox Church for political power and to force a socialistic idealogy.

History has never had an Atheist country ever, nor has Atheist laws ever played a role in government.

Secularism is a rendition of the Peace Accord under the Westphalia Treaty where religious Priests, Bishops and Archbishops had too much political power. Secularism sought to take the power from the Church to create law, to a forum open to debate by all people of the country. Secularist States can have religious laws, Secularism only separates the Church from creating law and gives this power to Parliament. American Democracy gives this power to Congress and to legislative boards.

Government was founded by religion.

There is nothing wrong with people trying to promote Atheism, Islam, Christianity, Black Magic or other ideas of what creation means to you. It is not sad that Missionaries on this game can share ideas with other civs. This exchange of ideas are real, accurate, and the true identity of democracy outside the realm of government. Idea sharing is the logical lifestyle that you experience when you discuss ideas.

 

[HourlyDaily]

Frekk, I liked your earlier idea about weaker early religions being swamped by newer ones.

If it is possible to set the 'strength' of a religion (maybe by associating greater benefits or more buildings to newer ones) then it will be possible to mod in say Greek, Norse, Egyptian, Celt, Meso American panthenons in my 2,000 turn (or more) game.

Off topic about Atheism that

@Volstag, some of us do take Civ and historical immersion that seriously. Not for everyone but hey.

 

[frekk]

When are people going to get over the implementation of religion in Civ IV? It's a game mechanic, nothing more! There's very little bearing between the in-game religions and the "real" religions. If you want Atheism so bad, just pretend one of them is "Atheism" and go from there. Or, better yet, just mod the names.

It just amazes me what a big deal people make this out to be.

The problem isn't the inclusion of religion. I think most people actually welcome that. The problem is the exclusion of secularism, which could be perceived as fundamentalist revisionism and a clear departure from the game's history of embracing received knowledge and steering away from radical interpretations of history.

Salting the wound, of course, was the bizarre and offensive statement that secularism is equivalent to paganism - which is utter nonsense. The secular tradition has very little in common with Neolithic supernatural beliefs - whereas religions are founded on such (eg the Old Testament for instance). Imo, this is a deliberate attempt to create controversy around the game in order to boost sales - a publicity stunt. This leaves me less than confident about the quality of the game itself!