Wonder balance and new wonders - post 1.5

[The Turk]

No, you only mean a part of that. Bad Ideas are bad, I concur. But you aim for finding good ideas. (gameplaywise and preferably historically (the wonders that matter)) Else there would be no point in sharing your thoughts.

You noted some things you didn't like about the Pyramids for RFCE, so the challenge is to find a way around your objections to give them a place.

Yes, you can find my suggestions above, also I like some of the others that have been mentioned by others, notably SanJose. I'm not sure what you are confused by.

 

[2phunkey4u]

Which nations, religions, etc. could be seen as needing more wonders, out of curiosity? I'd like to contribute to this thread but am not sure where to start

Going by region, I'd say Scandinavia, British Isles, North Africa, Turkey, Central-Eastern Europe, Balkans.

 

[El Bogus]

I want to recommend two examples of Brick Gothic which was often used around the Baltic Sea so Hanseatic League could be requirement.
1. The Marienburg (Malbork Castle)
The Marienburg is an Ordensburg built by the Teutonic Knights and it's the biggest brick building in Europe and according to the English Wikipedia the biggest castle in the world. Its effects could be: +6 :culture, +1 for Great Theologian, + 50% production of order units in this city or + 25% production of order units in every city.
Requirements: Catholicism, Hanseatic League (?)
2. The Marienkirche
The Marienkirche was built in Stralsund (next to where I was born ) and is said to be the tallest building in the world from 1549 to 1647.
Its effect could be: free cathedral in the city, double production of cathedrals in cities with Hanseatic League.
Requirements: Catholicism, Hanseatic League
(Alternatively, the Marienkirche of Lübeck could be used.)

 

[AbsintheRed]

Adding wonders on the map would only be possible with making a new unique tile feaure for them. At least I can't really think of a different approach.
This means converting the existing building graphics into feature graphics, which might not be easy at all, I have no idea exactly what techical limitations exist there to be honest.
So even if I would like to spend time on such a small aesthetic addons on the map - which I definitely do not, at least not for quite a while - it could still only be placed instead of existing tile features.
Does it really worth it to have the Pyramids instead of a flood plains in our already small Egypt?

Lighthouse of Alexandria is perfectly fine of course, I quite like that idea.
Tied to an existing city, with a real and useful bonus.

 

[El Bogus]

Does it really worth it to have the Pyramids instead of a flood plains in our already small Egypt?

No, that's not worth it. I'm just suggesting stuff that comes to my mind. I'm not expecting you to implement any of it (if that's not obvious) but I'm happy about every thought of mine that finds acceptance within our small community.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Having said that, if anyone wants to try his/her hands on making the graphics, don't hold back.
I'm always pro-flavor, if we have the graphics in place, can surely figure out how to use it.

 

[2phunkey4u]

IIRC, there is a preplaced Buddhas of Bamiyan wonder in SOI. It has no effect (not even culture), apart from spreading Buddhism. It's just there so that its graphical art is present in a city/region. You could do the same with ancient wonders (e.g. Stonehenge, Parthenon) here. You could also make it so that ancient wonders are pre-placed and have some effects, but go obsolete early (tied to certain techs), like the Lighthouse in SOI.

 

[AbsintheRed]

No, that's not worth it. I'm just suggesting stuff that comes to my mind. I'm not expecting you to implement any of it (if that's not obvious) but I'm happy about every thought of mine that finds acceptance within our small community.

Keep it up
Giving some thoughts how to solve it:
- In case of the Pyramids, it might not be that strange visually to have it one tile further from the Nile, so inside the desert.
- As it's a new tile feature, we can add any bonuses to it. Can have the exact same bonuses as flood plains. This would probably look quite ugly though.
- I can implement a mechanics which would give various bonuses in the city, which has the wonder in it's BFC. The most elegant solution IMO, and opens lots of further possibilities. E.g. Having the Pyramids in the proximity of the city means some kind of a great engineer bonus. Petra a bonus to commerce/trade routes. Representing the inspiration from these wonders.

 

[AbsintheRed]

IIRC, there is a preplaced Buddhas of Bamiyan wonder in SOI. It has no effect (not even culture), apart from spreading Buddhism. It's just there so that its graphical art is present in a city/region. You could do the same with ancient wonders (e.g. Stonehenge, Parthenon) here.

We can even take it much farther as I posted above.
But as I said, I'm not going to work on converting the graphics, don't have any time or will for that ATM.
Anyone interested in that?

EDIT: checked, but SoI only has a normal wonder preplaced in the city.
We are looking for something entirely different with these.

You could also make it so that ancient wonders are pre-placed and have some effects, but go obsolete early (tied to certain techs), like the Lighthouse in SOI.

Yep, that's my plan with the Lighthouse. And actually we already have it this way with the Theodosian Walls in Constantinople.
I'm not really sure if there are any other good candidates. Probably not, at least not as good options as these.

 

[SanJose]

The pyramids were used as quarries, Petra abandoned at the beginning of the Islamic era. These amazing monuments of architecture should play the role of scenery on the map or WWs with null value.

 

[AbsintheRed]

But as I said, I'm not going to work on converting the graphics, don't have any time or will for that ATM.

I guess I lied

 

[El Bogus]

Heh!

 

[AbsintheRed]

The pyramids were used as quarries, Petra abandoned at the beginning of the Islamic era. These amazing monuments of architecture should play the role of scenery on the map or WWs with null value.

While I agree historically and they are mostly there for pleasing the eye, if we decide to add any of these wonders we should have a gameplay compensation for taking a useful tile from the city.

 

[gilgames]

I agree stonahange and the pyramids should be there. Giving 1 or 2 commerce. Just make an icon for them and the commerce bonus for the tile.

 

[The Turk]

Lighthouse of Alexandria is perfectly fine of course, I quite like that idea.

Don't make the bonus too much though, and can you make the wonder disappear at a certain date?

100% international trade route yield is good enough IMO.

 

[The Turk]

IIRC, there is a preplaced Buddhas of Bamiyan wonder in SOI. It has no effect (not even culture), apart from spreading Buddhism. It's just there so that its graphical art is present in a city/region. You could do the same with ancient wonders (e.g. Stonehenge, Parthenon) here. You could also make it so that ancient wonders are pre-placed and have some effects, but go obsolete early (tied to certain techs), like the Lighthouse in SOI.

Bamiyan makes sense because it was still a Buddhist city, with a Buddhist sangha (community). in 500AD no one used Stonehenge, and no one used or cared about the Pyramids, just like we don't have a ton of Roman temples in Rome, like the Pantheon. No one used them for their intended purpose except as building material. Giving bonuses to them is even more laughable.

The Lighthouse makes sense, because after a bit of research it was still used as a lighthouse until the very early 14th century. But its cultural importance was lost. The Lighthouse effects for SoI are perfect (like for the Bamiyan statues), in that it only gives:

+1 Great Merchant
+100% International trade route yield.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Don't make the bonus too much though, and can you make the wonder disappear at a certain date?

Sure, that's only one line in python.
Do we want to obsolete it with a tech, or rather remove it around the final earhquake which destroyed it IRL?

Bamiyan makes sense because it was still a Buddhist city, with a Buddhist sangha (community). in 500AD no one used Stonehenge, and no one used or cared about the Pyramids, just like we don't have a ton of Roman temples in Rome, like the Pantheon. No one used them for their intended purpose except as building material. Giving bonuses to them is even more laughable.

Noone thinks that these had any of their original purposes. Simply think about the Pyramid as a nod to the 7 original wonders.
Also I don't think a minor bonus in the neighboring cities meant as some form of inspiration is too far stretched.

Having said that, I'm not yet sure if I will actually add it to the map - depends on how the area turns out for the Egypt civ.
The art is already there nevertheless, can be tested in the WB. (after my commit is up)

The Lighthouse makes sense, because after a bit of research it was still used as a lighthouse until the very early 14th century. But its cultural importance was lost. The Lighthouse effects for SoI are perfect (like for the Bamiyan statues), in that it only gives:

+1 Great Merchant
+100% International trade route yield.

Yeah, will be something similar. Don't want to go overboard with wonder bonuses.

 

[The Turk]

Sure, that's only one line in python.
Do we want to obsolete it with a tech, or rather remove it around the final earhquake which destroyed it IRL?

1303 or 1323 it should disappear. It was obsolete because of earthquakes not technology.

Also I don't think a minor bonus in the neighboring cities meant as some form of inspiration is too far stretched.

I think it is far stretched. Who said the 7 Wonders even mattered in the Medieval World? Much like the Franks/Visigoths/Saxons represent Year 0 for Western Europe, so did the Arab conquests of the 7th century represent "Year 0" for the people of the Eastern Mediterranean. Even before the 7th century, the Pyramids were already irrelevant. Why not add the Pantheon in Rome? Or the Roman baths in Bath, England, or the Temple to Jupiter in Baalbek? None of these places actually mattered, and their significance was lost. History now began with the Germanic invaders or the Arabs invaders, Roman law was null and void, all property law stems to the Germanic conquests not to the Romans, their legacy was lost. And this goes doubly for the Ancient Egyptians or Celts who were even more in the distant past.

Further, wouldn't this make that tile useless? Let us keep precious Egyptian land for tile improvement then a useless wonder.

Yeah, will be something similar. Don't want to go overboard with wonder bonuses.

I strongly concur. Especially for pre-existing wonders, their power shouldn't be that powerful. That being said, can we get rid of "unlock all civics" wonder ability? I find them to be lazy. But also on the topic of Civics, is there any chance for an overhaul sometime soon?

 

[AbsintheRed]

That being said, can we get rid of "unlock all civics" wonder ability? I find them to be lazy. But also on the topic of Civics, is there any chance for an overhaul sometime soon?

Yes to both.
Well, probably not that soon.

 

[SanJose]

List of candidates:

Spoiler :

Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi fortress (Akkerman fortress)
Bran Castle free for fisrt adopted Free peasantry civic
Corvin Castle
Biserica Neagră
The Cathedral of Curtea de Argeș
Medina Azahara
The Great Mosque of Kairouan
The Giralda
Cappella Palatina
The Monastery of Saint Ivan of Rila (Rila Monastery)