Wonder Elimination Thread

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Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 25
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 22
Eiffel Tower 10 -2
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 7
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23 +1
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 42
Taj Mahal 11
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 29

negative rep on Eiffel Tower, I never build it. Usually by that time in the game it's obvious if I'm going to win or lose.

positive rep on Sistine Chapel. I normally use a GE to get this one if it's still avaliable. The extra culture can be game changing.
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 22
Eiffel Tower 10
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 5
Pentagon 22
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 42
Taj Mahal 11
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 29

This time I will upvote Big Ben, and certainly not because of the +2 merchant points, but because of the handy purchase discount of 25 procent in all cities. In all but OCC challenges, this buying power soon will pay off in dividends.
I will downvote Notre Dame, because if you do not have happiness in check at that time, it is a struggle of a game anywho. Also, +1 merchant point is not exactly drooling material either.
 
I'm biased towards wonders that help with large games and longer time scales. (That's why I also liked the Great Lighthouse.)

Bump the Pentagon again - it's late-game, but late-game unit upgrades are expensive, this wonder can save tens of thousands of gold in a large game. Even if I've taken Professional Army, I'll often wait to upgrade Caravels if I can slingshot to Telegraph quickly and have a Great Engineer standing by, for instance. (There are many good wonders left, could just as well have picked Statue of Liberty or Cristo Redentor etc.)

And, the Eiffel Tower is still there, obviously because it gives a set amount of happiness it's less effective for large scale games, drop it again. (It's going to die soon.)

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 22
Eiffel Tower 8
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 5
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 42
Taj Mahal 11
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 29

Edit: incorporate TimeWeaver's vote.

positive rep on Sistine Chapel. I normally use a GE to get this one if it's still avaliable. The extra culture can be game changing.

I just missed the Chapel in my current game, bugger. Need a GE to "be sure".
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 22
Eiffel Tower 8
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 43
Taj Mahal 11
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 29

ND: Not worth the production.
Stonehenge: +8 Culture can easily help with any tree and thus any playing style.
 
How can anybody downvote Eiffel Tower when Notre Dame is still in it? They're exactly the same other than that the latter gives you less happiness and less GM slots.
 
How can anybody downvote Eiffel Tower when Notre Dame is still in it? They're exactly the same other than that the latter gives you less happiness and less GM slots.

Well, I did this, I'll reply.

First of all, they are the same thing**. I'll switch to Notre Dame if the Eiffel Tower dies first. But I have to pick one.

For me, I'll prefer Notre Dame because of when they come out. Their price is different (Notre Dame is +5 for 600, Eiffel Tower is +8 for 1000) but similar benefit ratio. Main difference is just that Notre Dame is a late Medieval wonder, Eiffel Tower is a late Industrial, almost Modern wonder. Basically earlier is better.

** - I wish they weren't so similar, there's enough complexity in the game that you could pick a signature effect for every wonder if you put a little effort into it.

Edit: waitaminnit, you're the guy that killed the Great Lighthouse off, you're obviously not playing late or large. Defending the Eiffel Tower makes no sense for you. You definitely don't have the right to complain after killing the GL before either of these two.
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 22
Eiffel Tower 8
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 43
Taj Mahal 11
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

+1 for Pyramids because they come early and make a huge impact on the game by speeding up workers, thus speeding up luxaries, city growth, etc.
-2 for Himeji Castle because I usually have enough units to defend cities and the cities themselves put up enough defense that I don't need the extra help from the Castle.
 
Edit: waitaminnit, you're the guy that killed the Great Lighthouse off, you're obviously not playing late or large. Defending the Eiffel Tower makes no sense for you. You definitely don't have the right to complain after killing the GL before either of these two.

I usually do play late, my laptop can't come close to handling large. The reason I voted down GL is because the caravel is so great to begin with for exploring, I don't really feel the need to make it even faster and I don't DOW that often so I will usually only use the bonus for a small space of time anyway. After everything has been explored, I usually have to need for ships at all. On the rare times I do attack overseas, I can protect my embarked units and run over the occasional enemy one just fine without GL. Also, the AI always get it really early, it's almost impossible to get. Besides, I'm not explicitly stating that GL is worse than ET or ND, my eliminating GL was more of a way of getting this game moving, it was about to go anyway.
 
Why do so many people vote for the pyramids ?!?! I don't get it.

* It's very expensive for its age (175 hammers compared to Stonehenge = 125 hammers or 2x workers = 140 hammers) and slows down expansion.
* In the early game, masonry is a useless tech (unless you have marble) and delays more important techs.
* Workers only cost 310 gold which is one of the best hammer/gold ratios.

Sure, it's a decent wonder but you have to pay a huge prize in order to get it. I'd only consider it if I had marble in my capital and even then, I'd rather build stonehenge, great lib or oracle.
 
pyramids are nice to have and have besides a gold/hammer* effect a good usage at building roads/railroads faster into newly conquered lands. It lasts forever and scales.

If you only have 2,3 workers all the time, pyramids is no wonder for you.
But imagine you have enough work for 20 workers all the time, than this wonder is awesome. You need less worker = less maintainance, you need less hammer, because you don't have to build that much workers. It also has +Eng for GP. Also you can build improvements for ressources faster.

But you are right with masonry. And at begin the return effect of pyramids is low and slows somewhat the early expansion, but can later give far more.

Is it good ? no, it's awesome for large empires, but poor for small ones.
Is it worth to build it ? maybe on easier difficulties and if you have a good setting therefor ( marble, being egypt, no race for superior places to settle,... ) I hardly build them.
What to do with this wonder ? CONQUER ;) Pyramids is one of the most scaling wonders.

Just to say it's (in)expensive or good/worse would be to easy.
 
I usually do play late, my laptop can't come close to handling large. The reason I voted down GL is because the caravel is so great to begin with for exploring, I don't really feel the need to make it even faster and I don't DOW that often so I will usually only use the bonus for a small space of time anyway. After everything has been explored, I usually have to need for ships at all. On the rare times I do attack overseas, I can protect my embarked units and run over the occasional enemy one just fine without GL. Also, the AI always get it really early, it's almost impossible to get. Besides, I'm not explicitly stating that GL is worse than ET or ND, my eliminating GL was more of a way of getting this game moving, it was about to go anyway.

I've got a friend that I recommended the game to that only has a laptop. He has the same play style in strategy games I do (ie, patient), but he can't use any of my strategies. The game is more demanding than I sometimes realize with my souped-up desktop machine.

Why do so many people vote for the pyramids ?!?! I don't get it.

* It's very expensive for its age (175 hammers compared to Stonehenge = 125 hammers or 2x workers = 140 hammers) and slows down expansion.
* In the early game, masonry is a useless tech (unless you have marble) and delays more important techs.
* Workers only cost 310 gold which is one of the best hammer/gold ratios.

Sure, it's a decent wonder but you have to pay a huge prize in order to get it. I'd only consider it if I had marble in my capital and even then, I'd rather build stonehenge, great lib or oracle.

Your observations are only valid for smaller games (where "Standard" is a smaller game.) The Pyramids benefit obviously scales with game size.

From the game size/speed polls, roughly 42% routinely play the game at "Large" or bigger (43% if we count the guy who plays with the "gigantic" mod), and a slightly larger number said their first game was on "epic" or "marathon" speed. I'd guess these are the same people. Likewise, these are the same group that will probably play as a "builder", not a "rusher".

Almost all disagreements on threads like these are due to playing environment. Fire up the game at Huge/Marathon, build the pyramids - then you'll "get it".

ps - whatever wonder wins this elimination contest will be good for both large and small setups, I'd guess.

Edit:
But you are right with masonry. And at begin the return effect of pyramids is low and slows somewhat the early expansion, but can later give far more.

Marble is one of the single most important resources contributing to an "excellent" capital city, though. I typically don't try for a lot of wonders - I'll pick key ones to "rush" with a Great Engineer. But if you do have Marble, you can slow-build and beat the AI to wonders consistently as long as you keep the tech lead (which isn't very hard with an NC start). One of the posters (I forget who) says he always plays for wonders, getting both the Aristocracy +20% and re-rolling his starting pos for the Marble +20%. I'd say that if you do have marble, going for Masonry early is a must.

btw, one advantage of the Pyramids isn't scale related - it's the absolute time you need to repair a key resource, like a damaged Aluminum mine. A worker action that takes 17 turns for a "normal" worker (w/citizenship) takes 12 turns for a Pyramid-boosted worker. That's a pretty common situation once you get to Nukes.
 
Your observations are only valid for smaller games (where "Standard" is a smaller game.) The Pyramids benefit obviously scales with game size.

From the game size/speed polls, roughly 42% routinely play the game at "Large" or bigger (43% if we count the guy who plays with the "gigantic" mod), and a slightly larger number said their first game was on "epic" or "marathon" speed. I'd guess these are the same people. Likewise, these are the same group that will probably play as a "builder", not a "rusher".

Almost all disagreements on threads like these are due to playing environment. Fire up the game at Huge/Marathon, build the pyramids - then you'll "get it".

ps - whatever wonder wins this elimination contest will be good for both large and small setups, I'd guess.

Yeah, you're probably right. I usually can't even do standard due to the massive demand of ciV.
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 43
Taj Mahal 11
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

I'm making the same vote I did last time. Randall explained perfectly why Eiffel is worse than Notre Dame (though both are bad, and ND is my second choice for elimination). It's a matter of, if you get to the tech to build Eiffel Tower before the AI and spend the time building it (assuming you've already finished Cristo from the parallel tech and broadcast tower from the same tech, which take priority), you've already won, and you're just wonder hording. You're definitely not building it for the 8 happiness.

Cristo, meanwhile, I just love in any set up. It's essential for culture of course, and you should bee-line and save an engineer for it. But I also love it in any other set up. It's on the way to the space ship parts, so I'm always trying to build it in Science games, too, because you'll get to the +5 production policy in Order, or the +2 techs policy at the end of Rationalism so much faster. And in set ups where you have tons of cities, it's nice to get so that you can get any new policies at all in the end.
 
Machu Picchu 9

Poor Machu Picchu, I have to say. It's in a tough spot in this poll. All the small map people are down-voting it because it is pretty useless in small maps. Meanwhile all the huge map people are busy up-voting the Pyramids, so it's not getting votes from the players who might actually like it.

Also, it's a pain in the neck having to be next to a mountain to build the dang thing.
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 43
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 11
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Louvre gives 2 GA at a critical time, these can be invaluable, and make or break a culture game
Taj Mahal is expensive, and comes at a time when other things are more important
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 9
Notre Dame 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 11
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Down voting Stonehenge not because it's worst, but because it's not as awesome as its current rating - its kind of a wash between Stonehenge and one early cultural CS ally really. Statue of Liberty comes late, but usually I have tons of specialists and this provides a nice big production boost. Plus, since it's late game, there's less to compete with so lower opportunity cost.
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 7 -2
Notre Dame 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 16
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 12 +1
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Louvre is so underrated... 2 great artists planted with all the modifiers is 30+ culture per turn so it gets my vote.
Machu p is useless for my playstyle which is tall hammers could be used better else where.
 
Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 7
Notre Dame 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 17
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 22
Louvre 12
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

I'll keep defending the FP, even if it seems I'm the only one that likes it.

Notre Dame comes roughly at the same time as FP, and if aggressive, it doesn't give more happiness than the FP, and doesn't scale either. It would be a completely different pair of shoes if extra happiness gave a sizeable advantage; I can't really measure extra happiness in terms of GA bits, so I prefer more direct, clear benefits (the same applies when you consider AIs that will always buy luxury resources, even if they don't get a real benefit from it). As I see it, global happiness is still an experiment, thus some of the incoherences.

On a side note, Machu Picchu suffers from the difficult condition: near a mountain inside your territory. If Machu Picchu gave very good benefits, then whoever started near a mountain would be heavily advantaged, since he would have a lot of time to build it (other civs would wait until they developped a strong hammer city next to a mountain to build it, or have a spare GE). Thus it has a kind of meh bonus, while not being particularly cheap itself either...
 
louvre needs a tech, which isn't good for it's own and is normally one of the latest tech at this tier I get, while printing press (taj mahal ) is needed for economics and brings theatre for happiness. 30 culture at this time is maybe something about 1/20 of the whole culture when built and later even less and when collecting this culture, you don't get production or gold. And the GP-GA time should be already something to minimum duration. Machu Pichu is great on large maps. I normally go for hammers or food and never for +gold land improvements, but therefor build at rivers. And so for a long time the trade network is my main income source.
Also, when building louvre my empire production should be something about 1000-2000 hammers. And gold through trading routes something about 300-600. Yes, many cities. On Small maps there is hardly any need to build something different than units ... I need happiness at all costs.

and prof, I also like FB and I usually look for Machu Pichu city at begin.
 
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