Wonder Elimination Thread

[Agent Cooper]

This time I'll slash Libby for 2 points of damage, as my specialist count usually is very negligible and it therefore renders this wonder kinda useless. What is the big deal with this wonder anyway?

If you are familiar with Thals Balance Mod, one of the pros of that mod is how a lot more buildings and wonders give extra specialist slots, especially engineer specialists.

You can essentially play CiV with a 'specialist economy' as powerful as you could in Civ IV bts which is great. As such, the SoL is huge with that mod. Like an extra factory in each city working a horde of specialists or better.

Funny how come I mention Thals mod in so many posts today...

 

[Randall Turner]

I can think of a lot of things off the top of my head that I was arguing for, and they incorporated. Mech Infantry speed "3", Ironclad promotion to BB's, "Order" being exclusive from Freedom, heck, most of the wonders we've been pinging on this thread they've also identified as needing help.

Sure don't appreciate them nerfing my Mandekalu Cavalry even more, though, the buggers.

 

[elprofesor]

Remember that defensive buildings AND longswordmen have been nerfed too. Plus Honor has been buffed too (now you can hunt down barb camps effectively, getting 3x gold AND culture, just by opening it). So I think they will still be very strong.

EDIT:just realized that now Conquistadores are strictly better than mandekalu cavalry, so I guess they'll get the strong penalty against cities back next patch, which will nerf them into oblivion

 

[Bezurn]

Lots of yacking on this page. I had to go back a page to get the list. If you're going to yack in this thread and you haven't voted that day, PLEASE VOTE! Thank you. There are plenty of other posts that deal with the patch changes. This is for voting on CURRENT wonders.

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 4
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 8
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

Upvote: Hemji Castle - On higher difficulty levels this is great to counter the AI's advantage with unit count.
Downvote: Machu Pichu - Great for puppet empires, but not every game involves me conquering half the world. Stingy build restrictions.

 

[NicTeos]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 4
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 19
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

FP - scaling happiness Wonder
Louvre - too less effect at this time on big maps

 

[elprofesor]

@Bezurn: Sorry for the derailment

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 4
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 39
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

I think I've made my point about the FP already.
On Stonehenge: it is a great wonder, but it's not that good. There are other ways to get culture, and other wonders that give GE points. At that time in the game, you should be spending your production elsewhere, or you will probably fall behind (unless playing cultural).

 

[civnoob13]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 4
Himeji Castle 32
Machu Picchu 0 OUT!
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 40
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

Piccu needs too specific placement, is very expensive, and only very rarely is of any value for me (I don't play large)

Stonehenge, at least for now, is simply fantastic for early culture. And I won't say no to the GE point. Yes, you can get the same sort of thing with a CS, but there are more important things to spend 500 gold on early game IMHO.

On Stonehenge: it is a great wonder, but it's not that good. There are other ways to get culture, and other wonders that give GE points. At that time in the game, you should be spending your production elsewhere, or you will probably fall behind (unless playing cultural).

There is only one other way to get such a massive amount of culture so early on. That is cultural citystates. But it takes a long time to get even 250 gold, let alone 500, and early game they can usually be put to better use by buying a worker or settler or military. True, you could say that there are also better things to be building early game than stonehenge, but SPs can also give you a free settler anyway. That way, you can spend production on stonehenge, and get a free settler without halting growth like you do early game.

 

[elprofesor]

Stonehenge, at least for now, is simply fantastic for early culture. And I won't say no to the GE point. Yes, you can get the same sort of thing with a CS, but there are more important things to spend 500 gold on early game IMHO.

There is only one other way to get such a massive amount of culture so early on. That is cultural citystates. But it takes a long time to get even 250 gold, let alone 500, and early game they can usually be put to better use by buying a worker or settler or military. True, you could say that there are also better things to be building early game than stonehenge, but SPs can also give you a free settler anyway. That way, you can spend production on stonehenge, and get a free settler without halting growth like you do early game.

I won't say your points aren't good ones, because they are. Nevertheless, with resource selling (or even more exploitative, open borders selling), you can get 500 gold real fast to bribe a CS, that will give you the culture plus a lux resource briefly afterwards, maybe even iron. And you can always build units and go on a barb hunt spree. If you want the GE point, Pyramids are probably a better choice, although I don't like them so much either (building them, I mean; I have no problem getting them ).

I used to start my game building the Stonehenge as soon as I had my first settler out there, but then I discovered the power of an early rush (not even necessarily a longswordman rush, a swordman rush or UU rush work fine as well), and stopped using my earliest production on wonders. Then the march patch changed everything (stronger National College and Meritocracy Great Person), and I made around 5 games with the NC start + really early longswordmen/early renaissance UU to understand it was completely nuts. And that's without RA blocking...

If I was forced to choose an ancient era wonder, it would be Stonehenge; but IMHO, ancient/classical era wonders stop expansion way too much, thus my preference towards renaissance or later wonders. It obviously depends on the Civ and the start you've got; Ramesses with marble doesn't look at Stonehenge or Pyramids with the same eyes than Moctezuma or Oda Nobunaga.

 

[civnoob13]

I won't say your points aren't good ones, because they are. Nevertheless, with resource selling (or even more exploitative, open borders selling), you can get 500 gold real fast to bribe a CS, that will give you the culture plus a lux resource briefly afterwards, maybe even iron. And you can always build units and go on a barb hunt spree. If you want the GE point, Pyramids are probably a better choice, although I don't like them so much either (building them, I mean; I have no problem getting them ).

I used to start my game building the Stonehenge as soon as I had my first settler out there, but then I discovered the power of an early rush (not even necessarily a longswordman rush, a swordman rush or UU rush work fine as well), and stopped using my earliest production on wonders. Then the march patch changed everything (stronger National College and Meritocracy Great Person), and I made around 5 games with the NC start + really early longswordmen/early renaissance UU to understand it was completely nuts. And that's without RA blocking...

If I was forced to choose an ancient era wonder, it would be Stonehenge; but IMHO, ancient/classical era wonders stop expansion way too much, thus my preference towards renaissance or later wonders. It obviously depends on the Civ and the start you've got; Ramesses with marble doesn't look at Stonehenge or Pyramids with the same eyes than Moctezuma or Oda Nobunaga.

But I don't really like the semi-exploitative resource selling that much, and I had no idea you could get so much from open borders. I prefer to play the game how it was intended than to find ways to exploit. I personally disagree with the idea that stonehenge hinders early expansion. For one, the massive culture boost speeds up the aquisition of SPs so much I find it to help more than to hinder. Speaking strictly pre-patch, it lets you get SPs like landed elite, which is fantastic for early expansion and IMHO more than makes up for building a granary a few turns later, and gives way to science boosts I'd argue better or around the same as getting a library a few turns earlier. Plus, the free settler you can now comfortably get (and arguably earlier because you're not so pressured to get other SPs early) doesn't stop growth like specifically building one, and doesn't waste gold like buying one would.

Tl;dr, the extra SPs you get from stonehenge more than makes up for building the library and granary a few turns later.

 

[Randall Turner]

Lots of yacking on this page. I had to go back a page to get the list. If you're going to yack in this thread and you haven't voted that day, PLEASE VOTE! Thank you. There are plenty of other posts that deal with the patch changes. This is for voting on CURRENT wonders.

Because the thread guidelines state we've got to give some rationale for our picks, we'll tend to get into discussions. (Which I think is fine, much more likely we'll learn something.) The patch changes are appropriate in that if a wonder is nerfed or buffed by the patch, it's indirect support for a view that they're currently over/under-powered. But, I'll also vote here...

It's still easy to find a "good" and a "bad" wonder at this point. Voting a little earlier in the day today, no big deal... and I wanted to vote before the Eiffel Tower is dead, it's an easy choice to downvote. Likewise, the Pentagon is one of many remaining "good" ones, especially given that I tend to have a large army and play "late".

ps - obligatory patch note for Bezurn. I think the changes will mitigate towards longer games, so I think the Pentagon stays strong post-patch. <shrug>


Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 32
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 40
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

 

[elprofesor]

You get 44-50 gold per open border (unless they covet your land), which adds up quickly. I agree with you that resource-selling feels highly exploitative, since you wouldn't be able to pull it off against a human player. Then again, the AIs get bonuses for everything, and their build order doesn't suck as much as their tactical abilities, so if you want to take advantage of your human essence, you have to either:
-get into wars
-use semi-exploitative tricks (i.e. resource selling. I avoid RA blocking, which is extremely powerful, but feels wrong).

If I deny myself resource selling, then I'll have to drop down a level or tow to get a succesful rush without UU/UA advantages (ie king, or emperor if lucky). If I don't plan to get a cultural victory, there's nothing that stops me from settling every decent space and puppeting any AI's empire (aside from happiness, but that's why I value FP so highly). If I'm playing continents, I'll go Atila on my neighbours until some outer civ gets a caravel in my coast. The faster way to expand is hands down conquest (unless you ICS...), and it has the extra benefits that puppets don't raise SP costs, and that it will hinder AIs expansion, so that you can do whatever you want with your land. You don't even need to get a domination win afterwards; Science will do.

Note that I play with diplo victory off, since the AI has a tough time understanding how it works; diplo victory is feasible even if you're not among the top civs, so it is possible to not expand as much and still win. Obviously Stonehenge is the perfect ancient wonder for culture wins (extra culture plus GE point).

Compare with the Great Library for example: free tech, plus extra GS later on. That's great for speeding up longswordmen/knights (if UU), or for getting civil service early for extra growth.

If you get Stonehenge before your first settler, you will be 20-30 turns behind everybody else, and that's tough to recover from. Sure, landed elite will help to get your cities to 5-6 pop a lot faster, but a lot of good spots will be already taken, your military will be lagging behind, so you will get DoWed more and will have trouble defending yourself. If there's a lot of space between you and your nearest neighbours, then it will be fine: there will be spots to settle later on, and you won't get DoWed yet. Otherwise, take advantage of the first weakness of the AI, and rush a neighbour or two.

PS: obviously, all this said with the utmost respect to whichever way you follow to win. It's not because an early rush is possibly the strongest opening that it is the most fun.

 

[Man vs Civ AI]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 40
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 32

+1 for Pyramids - the worker bonus is sooooo good!
-2 for Himeji Castle - one of the wonders I can do without due to alternatives.

 

[civnoob13]

Compare with the Great Library for example: free tech, plus extra GS later on. That's great for speeding up longswordmen/knights (if UU), or for getting civil service early for extra growth.

If you get Stonehenge before your first settler, you will be 20-30 turns behind everybody else, and that's tough to recover from. Sure, landed elite will help to get your cities to 5-6 pop a lot faster, but a lot of good spots will be already taken, your military will be lagging behind, so you will get DoWed more and will have trouble defending yourself. If there's a lot of space between you and your nearest neighbours, then it will be fine: there will be spots to settle later on, and you won't get DoWed yet. Otherwise, take advantage of the first weakness of the AI, and rush a neighbour or two.

I think that the Great Library isn't as strong as stonehenge. Great Library is usually just a short-term advantage (other than the GS points) and in order to get a really good tech out of it, you have to beeline, thus delaying the acquisition of other early and very important techs. Stonehenge on the other hand offers a far more long-term advantage. Also, I personally prefer great engineers to great scientists because I think a free tech is far less powerful than a free wonder.

True, if you wait an extra 20-30 turns for a settler, you will be far behind, but that is why that free settler from your SPs is so useful. I usually find, even when building stonehenge, I get my second city before the AI (although it should be noted I play on a lower difficulty than you - whatever the moderate one is). So I'd say that at least on the lower difficulties the delay to cities doesn't really apply. To be honest, if I expanded any faster than I currently do even when building stonehenge, my happiness would be completely unmanageable.

 

[Hasire]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 40
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30
Although the bonus for pyramids is good, you have to give up so much to get it. The GL on the other hand, you can often get through GE if you get a culture ruin.

 

[elprofesor]

What I just said doesn't hold true on fair difficulties, because you can't sell resources: AIs don't have money. Thus the feasibility of a longswordmen rush is hindered. On the other hand, you need less units to rush your neighbour, and they will take longer to get on par with you military tech wise. I'd say 3 longswordmen plus fringe units are enough to steamroll your opponent, less if trained (barracks, armory, heroic epic, honor will all help you).
The meritocracy GS will help you get steel a lot faster: bulb it as soon as you get metal casting. Have some swordmen ready for the upgrade. The Great Library may bulb either metal casting (if possible); if you don't think it is, then either civil service for extra growth, or iron working to speed up the process. You will be amazed by its speed. Or just forget about the Great Library altogether and get the National College. Read a thread on the subject if you want to know more. As it is now, NC is stronger (and possibly cheaper) than any other wonder in its era, will get you to metal casting really fast, and won't stop there. It "obsoletes" around Renaissance, but you will have hopefully established a strong lead by then.

For the happiness issues, you have to prioritize techs granting you access to your local lux resources, construction (colisseums and Circus Maximus later on), and Horse Back Riding (circuses). Bribe CS for their lux resources, or fulfill their requests. Monarchy and Representation help with happiness too. And once you get to Theocracy, everything will be fine. If you are going large, FP is a must too. You can dip into unhapiness for a while during your conquests/expansion, just make sure that you have a back up plan, and don't get into the very unhappy range.

8 culture from Stonehenge is great, but CS give as much. They are expensive, but they give you lux and strategic resources, so they make up for it. Plus, they sometimes ask you easy tasks, which lower their cost. And there will be a time (after opera houses, but before Freedom and Radio towers) where Stonehenge won't contribute much towards you total cultural input, while CS culture scale during the game.

I'm not saying your opening is weak. But if you get over your happiness issues (remember, dipping into unhappiness for some turns isn't the end of the world, as long as you know how to get out of there), do an early rush in one of your games, and don't stop till you have rushed ~3 civs, and tell me then what do you think of Stonehenge. Although by then, the patch will have probably arrived, so it won't be the same anymore

 

[Save_Ferris]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 2
Himeji Castle 30
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 7
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 6
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Why is the Taj Mahal better off than the Louv're? The Louv're provides two golden ages, or, if you want, 12 culture. The Taj Mahal requires perfect timing as well. As for the Stonehenge, it's nearly essential for culture.

 

[civnoob13]

Let's just agree to disagree. I have tried rushes in the past, but the thing is that I don't usually go for conquest, and the diplomatic hit you get from rushing (especially an early rush, seeing as you're probably going to eliminate all their cities) is just not worth it for me. I will never be able to trade at a reasonable rate, and I will probably get DOWed on a lot more.

 

[elprofesor]

Ok on the agree to disagree part

I usually avoid getting a civ's last city if I can, unless nobody is watching
With some diplomacy control, you can slow down the massive hate that will follow (DoF, bribing AI's into DoWing each other...). It's easier to do if you play continents, since 1/2 or 2/3 won't know your blood-bathed past. If not, I try to get DoFs with two civs that already DoFed each other, and far away from each other if possible (close borders kill all love in this game).

And well, if everybody still hates you, you can always bribe Gengis Khan to DoW whoever bothers you, and win a science victory; or just get mad at them and capture their capitals.
Anyway, if you rushed only one civ, there shouldn't be too much hate; if you rushed more, you must secure your position: get as many lux resources as possible during the later setling of the land you've "liberated", and invest all your money into CS, both for culture, fast growth, and lux resources. Patronage is a key SP tree: it will grant you a lot of science, happiness and even GP, and will save you a lot of money in CS bribing. You should be able to sustain your big/large/massive/humongous empire after a shorter-than-you'd-think while.

For those that don't care whether Stonehenge is good or not, or prefer any other ancient/classical wonder, what I'm actually trying to convey is that the opportunity cost of these wonders is simply too high, compared to an early rush, or land grab depending on the map. Then again, this is just my very humble opinion.

 

[NicTeos]

Why is the Taj Mahal better off than the Louv're? The Louv're provides two golden ages, or, if you want, 12 culture. The Taj Mahal requires perfect timing as well. As for the Stonehenge, it's nearly essential for culture.

Because in a big empire the GA-GP duration is something at minimum on bigger maps ( likely from great generals ) . Taj Mahal needs printing press as tech and printing press is needed for theatre. And Theatre's are important buildings on a big map. Also it comes earlier than Louvre and is cheaper to build. Archaeology is normally a tech I get later at this tech-tier and this tech is for it's own rather weak. And culture bonus as landmarks is very little on big maps.

Louvre comes too late, is too weak and it doesn't matter if I have it or not.

 

[civnoob13]

Why is the Taj Mahal better off than the Louv're? The Louv're provides two golden ages, or, if you want, 12 culture. The Taj Mahal requires perfect timing as well. As for the Stonehenge, it's nearly essential for culture.

Both GAs put together from the great artists are still quite a lot shorter than from the Taj Mahal. If you have used your great people for a GA at any time before that, and I nearly always do, a good few times, then the GAs are even worse. The louvre is also more expensive and it comes later so it has less of an impact on the game.