Wonder Elimination Thread

[knighterrant81]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 18
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16 (-2)
Himeji Castle 9
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 36
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 19(+1)

I feel the Great Library is overrated because they've moved so many of the strong options for free techs away from this wonder. It is a nice temporary bump in beakers, a free Library, and some Great Scientist points. You can get all this from somewhere else, the AI focuses on this anyway (so you're likely to lose it at higher difficulties), and a National College is a much stronger build overall. You're better off spending the hammers on early settlers.

Stonehenge is powerful because faith is at its strongest early in the game. Yes, buying GPs can be strong as well at the end but the cost goes up so fast...an early Stonehenge can snag you an early pantheon and religion. Since these bonuses can only be picked once per game Stonehenge is huge. Yes you could build Shrines and get this bonus as well, but early game cities aren't known for being able to build things fast.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 9
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 36
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 16
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 19

Brandenburg Gate: Too little, too late for my taste. Not terrible, but the remaining wonders are better.
Neuschwanstein: Extremly strong. Unfortunately it requires a mountain...

 

[PhilBowles]

I still don't like Stonehenge. It's a false carrot that leads to rage. It's also very boring since it's entirely passive. I think that Stonehenge ruins a lot of good opening game strategy by making players think that they need to get Calendar first, skipping over Archery, Mining, and Writing. I understand that it makes getting a religion on higher levels easier, but it's really not necessary for that. Overall, bleh.

I can't call Stonehenge an interesting Wonder, but just because a lot of people take it for the wrong reason that doesn't make it a bad Wonder. I rarely have any trouble, even with late religion, getting the better beliefs, and indeed I often prefer to get late religion (if an AI gets Cathedrals/Mosques/Pagodas and they spread it to my city, I can buy that building, spread my new religion to the city, and still get the benefits of the religious building as well as all my religious beliefs). Interfaith Dialogue works best with established religions and the AI almost never takes it. I've never yet seen the AI prioritise Messenger of the Gods. etc. etc. But as you say, if you go for early religion you can do so without Stonehenge.

None of which makes Stonehenge in any way bad. Faith is not that easy to come by, especially early in the game (even if you have a pantheon belief that gives you faith from terrain, you don't have the pop to work it to full effect). Stonehenge accelerates the enhancement of your religion and more generally simply the faith you put out that can later be used to spawn anything you'd use faith for. And it's usually achievable on Immortal after taking Writing if Calendar's your next tech and you go for it immediately - which is rarely a bad choice since so many luxuries need plantations.

Good point! But given that melee units will probably be the bulk of most armies, the free promo is pretty huge.

The way I tech, by the time I get to Military Science and build Brandenburg (if I do), I'm almost at Flight anyway.

Also, while most units may be melee land units, those aren't usually the ones it's most valuable to overpromote. Is Blitz more valuable on Artillery or Riflemen? Ditto March - it's nice on melee units, but those are easy to cycle out to heal while you really want your ranged units to keep firing.

Alhambra is good in the short term, and I often take it, but its effect definitely fizzles out - Brandenburg is more valuable at the time it becomes available.

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 9
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 16
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 19

Petra: backing my favourite again
Hubble: My comments regarding Stonehenge notwithstanding, this is a "false carrot" that needs to be knocked back down because it's getting too far ahead to be warranted (an effect the in-game Wonder notably tends not to have). There are a lot of people here looking at "Two free GSes! Cool for any victory condition!" who don't seem to have personal experience using it for said conditions but just think it should be useful on principle. Satellites is not a tech you want before the main military path or the Globalisation path unless you're going science victory or decide that rushing nuclear missiles is a great idea to even the playing field when you have Infantry while everyone else is spamming mech inf and modern armour because you went for a militarily useless, expensive tech instead and then spend 20 turns building the telescope. Its place in the tech tree gives Hubble a deliberately restricted application, and it's pretty specific to science victories. If you're generating enough beakers for the two GSes to slingshot you far enough to grab two more expensive techs congratulations - your bpt was already more than high enough to reliably beat at least an Immortal level AI without any need for Hubble to "seal the deal". If you don't, you're still behind. That really leaves one admittedly powerful, but restricted, use for this Wonder: it drastically accelerates spaceship part production when you have a close rival with his own Apollo Program - not techwise but spaceship partwise. It's good because it has a useful effect and is never taken by the AI, but it's not deserving of a place at the top of the list.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Alhambra is good in the short term, and I often take it, but its effect definitely fizzles out - Brandenburg is more valuable at the time it becomes available.

for some reason ive seen alhambra beelined by civs in most of my games. i havent once been able to build in a game i needed it which is a bummer. it might get my minus vote pretty soon.just for that reason.

 

[PhilBowles]

for some reason ive seen alhambra beelined by civs in most of my games. i havent once been able to build in a game i needed it which is a bummer. it might get my minus vote pretty soon.just for that reason.

Yes, the AI does prioritise it; I suspect it might partly be programmed to prioritise buildings that give it promotions because that's the only way the AI will get them (it never promotes units through combat experience), however if this was the logic I'd expect Brandenburg Gate to be higher priority than it is.

 

[Koiranputki]

...Hubble: My comments regarding Stonehenge notwithstanding, this is a "false carrot" that needs to be knocked back down because it's getting too far ahead to be warranted (an effect the in-game Wonder notably tends not to have). There are a lot of people here looking at "Two free GSes! Cool for any victory condition!" who don't seem to have personal experience using it for said conditions but just think it should be useful on principle. Satellites is not a tech you want before the main military path or the Globalisation path unless you're going science victory or decide that rushing nuclear missiles is a great idea to even the playing field when you have Infantry while everyone else is spamming mech inf and modern armour because you went for a militarily useless, expensive tech instead and then spend 20 turns building the telescope. Its place in the tech tree gives Hubble a deliberately restricted application, and it's pretty specific to science victories. If you're generating enough beakers for the two GSes to slingshot you far enough to grab two more expensive techs congratulations - your bpt was already more than high enough to reliably beat at least an Immortal level AI without any need for Hubble to "seal the deal". If you don't, you're still behind. That really leaves one admittedly powerful, but restricted, use for this Wonder: it drastically accelerates spaceship part production when you have a close rival with his own Apollo Program - not techwise but spaceship partwise. It's good because it has a useful effect and is never taken by the AI, but it's not deserving of a place at the top of the list.

Nice analysis as usual... Trying to compare some of these wonders with each other is, I think, a bit counterproductive.... Some wonders are a "one-shot deal", but not getting them is hardly fatal...i.e: the Great Library ....others stay with you the whole game and "scale up" their benefits ...Machu Picchu, Chichen Itza, etc.....others are powerful early in the game, but their impact gradually "diminishes" in relative terms with time...Notre Dame....and still others are terrific wonders, but come so late in the game their impact tends not to be all that exciting....to wit: the CN Tower......

 

[DeathFace]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 7
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 16
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 19

The Hubble is what I like to call the perfect goodie bag for someone going for a science victory. I mean come on, two GS AND a spaceship factory? What more could you ask for when he comes to the space race?

Himeji Castle, at least for me, is kinda just there and seems a bit pointless unless you're going to be defending a lot.

 

[TillianSwoard]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 7
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 17 +1
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 17 -2

I like going wide and Neusch is usually a whole lot of gold culture and happiness that I can almost always grab

Stonhenge is usually an AI priority and I can get a religion without it

 

[Daranix]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 7
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 33
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 17
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 17

-2 to the Hubble: It's great for tech victories, but that's its only use; at this point I think wonders should offer broader benefits to be considered.

+1 to the Statue of Liberty: It's great in every victory you use specialists, so always. A wonder I will try to build and/or conquer every game.

 

[aguliondew]

Alhambra 17
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 7
Hanging Gardens 32
Hubble 33
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 17
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 17

Getting difficult to choose which is worst

Alhambra - it is nice but unless I am going for a culture vic I do not get it.

Hanging gardens - more food so your city is able to growth faster.

 

[Buccaneer]

I still don't like Stonehenge. It's a false carrot that leads to rage. It's also very boring since it's entirely passive. I think that Stonehenge ruins a lot of good opening game strategy by making players think that they need to get Calendar first, skipping over Archery, Mining, and Writing. I understand that it makes getting a religion on higher levels easier, but it's really not necessary for that. Overall, bleh.

Kwami, I understand your point but since I switched away from wonder spamming at higher difficulties, Stonehenge tends to be the first and about only one I build. And yes, prioritizing Calendar is usually a good thing for their luxuries (which seems to be more common than most).

 

[Buccaneer]

Are we allowed to vote again? That seems to be stacking the deck for or against a wonder. It seems that my least favorite wonders are the ones that:
1) give a Great Prophet;
2) give bonuses to sea tiles;
3) make tile buying cheaper;
4) have anything to do with espionage;
5) only gives GPP bonuses; or
5) doesn't do anything (e.g., terracotta).

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

you can vote once every 24 hours.

 

[zyx]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 5
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 17
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 17

I'd never use a GE on building Himeji Castle, I only build it when I just takes a few turns and I don't know what else to build.

Machu Picchu is very nice giving you a gold boost at a time you still need it.

 

[Lose]

Himieji castle is one of my favs

 

[draaibaar]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 5
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 17
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 32
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 17

Machu Picchu: Makes mountains become interesting.
Oracle: I do not like the simple fact that you get a SP for a wonder.

 

[DKRI]

]Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 3 (-2)
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 18 (+1)
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 32
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 17

The Himeji Castle is rightfully on its way out of the list. Let´s put it out of its misery. Useless bonus. If you play defensively and needs to fight a lot in your own territory you should be able to live w/o this bonus, otherwise your pretty screwed anyway.

I really like the Neuschwanstein. Really versatile wonder giving great overall bonuses. It comes along during what is usually my most expansionistic fase so I will have quite a lot of cities and produce a lot of extra unhappiness due to occupied cities so I almost always build this. I have also never seen the AI build it wich I factor in when I value a wonder (Alhambra would propably be one of my favourites if I ever was to build it). The production loss from coming in close second in wonderbuilding can be quite devastating.

 

[DKRI]

If possible I always try to build my second city next to a mountain for A) Machu Pichu, B) Good defensive terrain C) Observatory in what will often come to be my most developed city due to wonder building in the capital and D) Neuschwanstein

Mountains often also means a river and hills, so you can easily grow it to a decent size, switching to production mode when needed.

 

[VikingHaag]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 16
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 1 (-2)
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 19 (+1)
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 32
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 17


Himeji is officially eliminated: If you're fighting a defensive war inside your own borders you need more units not this wonder.

Neuschwanstein +1, a castle is easily built in all cities, and it makes it generate culture, happiness and gold. Extra points if you're expanding as India with mughal forts.

 

[ohdaesu]

Alhambra 18
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 14 (-2)
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 19
Great Library 16
Himeji Castle 1
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 35
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 28
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 20 (+1)
Notre Dame 27
Oracle 32
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 26
Pyramid 18
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 17


I rarely play war games so i dont prefer to build brandenburg with respect to other wonders. -2

Castles are easy to build without maintanence and the effect of Neuschwanstein is really great. +1