Wonder Elimination Thread

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 13
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 7
Statue of Liberty 7

Vote up for Neuschwanstein Castle for all of the reasons that I wrote in my previous posts.

Vote down for Great Library because it's another silly wonder that gets people to rush toward certain techs in the early game when doing so is likely to harm them in the long run. I understand that it's fun to build GL at lower difficulty levels, but like Stonehenge, it's almost never a good idea to go for it on higher levels. Not only are you unlikely to succeed, but even trying to get it usually means skipping techs that you really ought to be taking early (e.g. Mining, Archery), weakening your empire for quite some time. So, I don't like GL.
 
Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 28
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 7
Statue of Liberty 7

+ Neuschwanstein: Again while not the best wonder, I think it is better that many still left on the list and shouldn't be quite as low as it currently is. Combined with honor those castles are fantastic, especially for a conqueror who will have puppets building those castles for him/her.

- Oracle: I think its highly overrated, I'm not really a fan of single bonus wonders like the free social policy granted here.
 
Alhambra 12
Big Ben 16 (-3)
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15 (+1)
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 28
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 7
Statue of Liberty 7

Just throwing in some love for Neuschwanstein because ... well, I love Neuschwanstein. :D In a wide empire the bonus is actually quite immense, in a 20 city empire you get +20 Happiness, +40 Culture and +60 GPT from a building that doesn't even cost you any maintenance and which is quite cheap and makes your cities harder to take. What's not to love?

While I know I'm probably in the minority on this, I'm taking some points away from Big Ben because I don't seem to benefit from it that often. A gold discount is nice obviously, but I don't buy things for gold that frequently, and at the times I do, I don't really think the saved gold from Big Ben is what makes the difference in game outcome. In most games, the gold I would gain from Neuschwanstein would probably surpass the gold I would save from Big Ben anyway, even though the +4 gold from BB obviously helps in that total calculation.
 
Alhambra 12
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 29 + 1 = 30
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 28
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 7
Statue of Liberty 7 -3 = 4

HG - can be game changing if I get it.
SoL - never changes the game.
 
Alhambra 12
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 5
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 30
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 28
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 7
Statue of Liberty 4

ND : Can be transformed into :c5gold: if needed(luxuries selling). Versatile wonder.

ET : Too late to make a difference. Cities are already mature enough by that time.
 
The point I'm making is that you don't build things in a Civ game to "make up" the same cost you spent in the first place. In a hypothetical production city where you fill every specialist slot, +10-15 hammers a turn is a significant bonus to later production, particularly if that city also has percentage boosters like factories. It's irrelevant whether that actually amounts to 1200 over the course of a game; all that matters is whether you produce later buildings/units/Wonders significantly more quickly than you would otherwise, and using anything you'd have been able to build in the city in place of the Statue when it becomes available. As I say, Civ is not an RTS - you don't have a pool of resources accumulating at a fixed rate, from which you buy things when you have enough of said resource. As a result of this and limited production slots, overall expenditure is relatively unimportant, and the number of turns taken to complete the next item in the queue is the relevant consideration. And if you can accelerate production in multiple cities, whether or not they're production cities, that too is an important bonus - every city has to produce something.

Of course its relevant if you make up the cost over the course of the game. If you spent 30 turns building it and it only saves you 20 turns worth of production, why build it at all instead of going right to the remaining buildings? Unless you have no better choices or you rush it.

Same reason its great to just gold-purchase things like factories and hydro plants, workshops in new cities, etc. Every turn you spend building them is one you have to recoup before it starts saving you time on other items.

If I am understand par of PhilBowles point, such boost comes at a time when you need it. Spreading out costs will likely net you more production but what to build? There's always a period in the game (esp. in the capital) where you don't have anything useful to build. But you will (hypothetically) 100 turns from now (when you are planning for a big build that will come available at the time). By planning ahead, you can time it so that your boost in production becomes ready when you need it most.
 
Alhambra 9(-3)
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 5
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 30
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 28
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 8(+1)
Statue of Liberty 4

Seems to me that 20% in one city isn't quite as good as 25% in all cities (even though that one city could be seriously min/maxed for culture). Drill I promotions are nice, but I find at this point that my battles tend to move out of rough terrain and onto improved tiles. The AI also tends to build cities on flat ground.
 
Alhambra 9
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 5
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 28
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 8
Statue of Liberty 4

Never use the HG.

Leaning Tower of Pisa great for getting GPs.
 
Of course its relevant if you make up the cost over the course of the game. If you spent 30 turns building it and it only saves you 20 turns worth of production, why build it at all instead of going right to the remaining buildings? Unless you have no better choices or you rush it.

For the reason I mentioned: turn times. It's much more relevant if you can get your Research Labs going 10 turns after you finish Plastics than 15 than it is whether that boost "makes up the cost" of the Wonder. If you need to adapt your strategy, it's much more relevant whether you can switch production quickly than it is whether you could have been building something else instead of the statue at an earlier point in the game. How many of the people backing Hubble are asking whether it will make its cost back in spaceship production saved? None - in fact it's been pointed out that it won't. But the Wonder does accelerate ship part production to such an extent that it can give you an edge when you need it.

Same reason its great to just gold-purchase things like factories and hydro plants, workshops in new cities, etc. Every turn you spend building them is one you have to recoup before it starts saving you time on other items.

And yet, you won't avoid building these in your cities if you don't have the gold to buy them straight away, because it is worth the investment.

Vote down for Great Library because it's another silly wonder that gets people to rush toward certain techs in the early game when doing so is likely to harm them in the long run. I understand that it's fun to build GL at lower difficulty levels, but like Stonehenge, it's almost never a good idea to go for it on higher levels. Not only are you unlikely to succeed, but even trying to get it usually means skipping techs that you really ought to be taking early (e.g. Mining, Archery), weakening your empire for quite some time. So, I don't like GL.

It's not often a good idea to go for Mining or Archery before Writing - you won't have a worker in place, won't have the population to support working hills right away, and won't need luxuries that soon anyway. You likely won't have either the gold to buy an archer than early or any need to do so - unless you want to beeline Temple of Artemis, Archery can wait too. Both GL and Stonehenge have the saving grace that they are on techs that you'll want to beeline anyway, and you don't lose out by not doing so.

Alhambra 9
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 2
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 27
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 28
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 8
Statue of Liberty 4

My delayed vote of the day. Petra up again for all the previous reasons.

Eiffel Tower down because a few Wonders are getting close to elimination, and I think this is the first of them that deserves to go.
 
Alhambra 9
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 2 - 2 = 0
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 27 + 1 = 28
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 28
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 8
Statue of Liberty 4 -1 = 3

I will hasten the demise of Eiffel and add a vote to HG that can come in handy to switch to a specialists economy.
 
For the reason I mentioned: turn times. It's much more relevant if you can get your Research Labs going 10 turns after you finish Plastics than 15 than it is whether that boost "makes up the cost" of the Wonder. If you need to adapt your strategy, it's much more relevant whether you can switch production quickly than it is whether you could have been building something else instead of the statue at an earlier point in the game. How many of the people backing Hubble are asking whether it will make its cost back in spaceship production saved? None - in fact it's been pointed out that it won't. But the Wonder does accelerate ship part production to such an extent that it can give you an edge when you need it.

That's an apples-to-oranges comparison for two reasons. Firstly the HST also provides two great scientists. Secondly it is specifically geared towards a science victory, at which point any edge at all in getting the spaceship parts out a bit faster is worth it.

So for SofL, I see some value in it if you are specifically attempting to hit certain things out as soon as they are available. But it has certainly not been my experience that I'm sitting there looking for things to build because I have everything I already want, especially around the time SofL becomes available.




It's not often a good idea to go for Mining or Archery before Writing - you won't have a worker in place, won't have the population to support working hills right away, and won't need luxuries that soon anyway. You likely won't have either the gold to buy an archer than early or any need to do so - unless you want to beeline Temple of Artemis, Archery can wait too. Both GL and Stonehenge have the saving grace that they are on techs that you'll want to beeline anyway, and you don't lose out by not doing so.

All this says to me is that we have such completely different approaches to the game it's no wonder we disagree. I can't remember the last time I got writing before both mining and archery, and I can never get luxuries soon enough. Or archers for that matter.
 
Alhambra 9
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 28
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 29
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 8
Statue of Liberty 0

I have to emphasize the awesomeness of the Oracle. Not only is it available on higher difficulties, but it actually keeps the promise of something being "free," Not like a "free" great person, where the cost of the next one increases. It doesn't mess up Rennaisance timings because it doesn't effect the cost of any future policy. Think of the Oracle as giving you your last social policy you get right now, if that makes any sense.

Statue of Liberty is only really good in a tall AND wide empire, where you have 6-8 20 pop cities with all buildings all pumping out great people, otherwise the production spent on it isn't worth it. Glad I was able to kill it.
 
That's an apples-to-oranges comparison for two reasons. Firstly the HST also provides two great scientists.

True, but for all the attention they get, this is the lesser of its two effects given the game stage at which you get Hubble and its marginal impact on science victory if you're already tech leader. Moreover the point isn't to compare the two Wonders overall (I wouldn't deny that Hubble's a better Wonder than Statue of Liberty), but simply to point out that in principle production gained vs. production saved is not a standard by which Wonders can reliably be judged.

Secondly it is specifically geared towards a science victory, at which point any edge at all in getting the spaceship parts out a bit faster is worth it.

Needing spaceship parts is hardly the only case in which getting items faster is worth it - if it were no one would bother with workshops, factories etc. in the first place (and of course the Statue helps to get spaceship parts out faster as well...).

So for SofL, I see some value in it if you are specifically attempting to hit certain things out as soon as they are available. But it has certainly not been my experience that I'm sitting there looking for things to build because I have everything I already want, especially around the time SofL becomes available.

I usually specialise my cities, since building maintenance costs make duplicating everything but the most basic buildings in all cities inadvisable, unless I'm in need of particular National Wonders. What's more my production city is both my main centre for building Wonders and, by its nature, will tend to have all the buildings it needs earlier than my other cities. In any case, the SoL is like any Wonder - you choose it because you want its effect ideally, not because there's just nothing better to build.

All this says to me is that we have such completely different approaches to the game it's no wonder we disagree. I can't remember the last time I got writing before both mining and archery, and I can never get luxuries soon enough. Or archers for that matter.

Getting libraries early is paramount in my experience; even the delay from trying for GL and missing it can cost me critical time in teching on Immortal; going for other techs earlier than I need them is a definite no-no. Indeed the library situation is somewhat analogous to my case with SoL; if you get the library ASAP, you get Mining and Archery a lot sooner when you need them, and for such cheap techs even the difference in population between researching them after Writing and researching them earlier can save a turn or two of research.

As above, though, I simply can't see a case where I'd want Mining early unless I was beelining Bronze Working for an aggressive strategy. By itself it's no use until you have a Worker, there's no use having a Worker until you have more than two or three pop to work the tiles you're improving (I don't want to build a Worker until I've completed at least Scout-Monument-Library), and since I want my capital to grow as fast as possible as early as possible, I'm not going to be working 0 food, 3 hammer tiles that early in the game. While excess happiness is good to start churning out Golden Ages, that's not a priority right at the start of the game and I don't use 'sell luxes for gold' exploits. Even if I did, it's fairly rare that I come across mining luxuries alone in my starting location.

I also don't play aggressively enough to need early Archers. Even the earliest rushes from AIs tend to hit after turn 70 or so, and I often delay or prevent them anyway. I also like to buy my first archers, and rarely have 200 gold at the very start. I like Temple of Artemis, but it's a very long time since I last built it - and it's always the first Wonder the AI builds anyway.

Alhambra 9
Big Ben 16
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 2 - 2 = 0
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 27 + 1 = 28
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 28
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 8
Statue of Liberty 4 -1 = 3

I will hasten the demise of Eiffel and add a vote to HG that can come in handy to switch to a specialists economy.

There are 2 downvotes here - if Statue of Liberty wasn't downvoted, it should still be in the list with 1 point following the last vote.
 
Alhambra 9
Big Ben 13
Chichen Itza 26
Great Library 4
Hanging Gardens 28
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 29
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 1

Sistine Chapel is the best wonder to get for a cultural victory and does not deserve to die yet. Also helps for other victories because policies are still important for other victory conditions.

Big Ben in my opinion is the worst out of these because while the lowered buying costs is nice it isn't as good as some of the other wonders here.
 
I only get Big Ben when I go Commerce and Autocracy, making GDR's only 350 gold in the late game, and nukes only 700 gold. Makes war extremely easy, as I will usually have 200-300 gpt in the information era anyway.
 
True, but for all the attention they get, (snip)

By what measure is selling luxes for gold an "exploit"? I can't recall ever seeing anyone make that claim. Some people consider selling a lux before DoW or letting a lux get pillaged on purpose an exploit (something which I largely agree with) but just any old trade?

You get at least as much science benefit from getting 2nd and 3rd cities up asap as building a library thanks to the population.

Mining ain't just for building mines.

I get rushed in games before turn 70 far more often than not.

These points make me feel like we're playing something very different.

I will grant that simply looking at hammers in < hammers out is not, by itself, a complete measure of value on a wonder, and perhaps I could have phrased my original post on the subject better. But it is entirely reasonable to say that if the number of hammers going in is far more than those coming out then the wonder leaves something to be desired, and IME that is the case with SofL. As I said before, I suppose it depends largely on how you use slots. But if we're considering the subject of accelerating production on key buildings then I probably don't want a whole bunch of specialists anyway, instead working tiles that provide multiple hammers. That is likely to only leave great engineer slots enhanced by the SofL, further reducing its potential.
 
I only get Big Ben when I go Commerce and Autocracy, making GDR's only 350 gold in the late game, and nukes only 700 gold. Makes war extremely easy, as I will usually have 200-300 gpt in the information era anyway.

Big Ben with Autocracy/Commerce is way too overkill. I generally like the Big Ben because it usually saves me a turn to rush buy Public School in my capital and the rest of the cities as well. In late game I nearly rush buy every important building to my victory so it's pretty good.

Alhambra 9
Big Ben 13
Chichen Itza 26
Great Library 1 (-3)
Hanging Gardens 28
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 26
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 31
Oracle 29
Petra 26 (+1)
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 1

GL: Never thought I get to see the day this would happen, and so early too! After enough games on Immortal, I don't need to waste 20 something turns to build this instead of a cheap library to maintain in track with AI. It's a great wonder, no doubt, but it lost its charm when I see AI making it at T34-36 in like the last 5 games I've played... in a row. Jolly insane, that was.

Petra: I want the Petra to win this, actually. It's by far the best situational wonder, there just isn't any competition against it. Then again, it seems most of the situational wonders are gone already. Petra alone can make a secondary city into a production powerhouse, as everyone knows, sometime even eclipsing the capitol's. And this means you can often hard build 3-4 more wonders with it rather than use your capitol for doing so. In my last culture game here:

Civ5Screen0022 copy.jpg

And I didn't even get some sheep hills on this one.
 
Back
Top Bottom