Wonder Elimination Thread

[Sir Parker II]

Broadway - 15
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 22
Eiffel Tower - 31
Forbidden Palace- 24 While it has it's advantages in some cases, you can pretty easily ally a couple CS later on.
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 23
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 24
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 31
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18 The early faith never hurts, I grab this wonder quite a bit.
Temple of Artemis - 14
Uffizi - 12

 

[Merciorum]

Borobudur -0- Bye useless faith wonder

It's really not useless. It's very good for spreading your religion very quickly, particularly if you've already used the HS to enhance/found a religion.

 

[jlim201]

It's really not useless. It's very good for spreading your religion very quickly, particularly if you've already used the HS to enhance/found a religion.

Borobudur is useless. Missionary= 1 turn to get in borders, 1 turn to spread, 2
turns to go to next city, never gets there because of attrition. Prophet= 4 spreads, no attrition.

Overall, Hagia Sophia is better because 4 spreads with a Prophet is more likely to happen than 6 spreads with Missionaries. Plus Missionaries cant fully convert a city. Missionaries will suffer attrition which means most of the time, they get one spread each.

 

[Guandao]

Broadway - 15+1=16, a nice wonder to have for a cultural victory, just get three great musicians from the same era
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 22
Eiffel Tower - 31
Forbidden Palace- 24
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 23
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 24
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 31
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18
Temple of Artemis - 14-3=11, tis a decent wonder, but I like to build other wonders first, and an AI tends to grab this one early
Uffizi - 12

 

[Dr. D]

Borobudur is useless. Missionary= 1 turn to get in borders, 1 turn to spread, 2
turns to go to next city, never gets there because of attrition. Prophet= 4 spreads, no attrition.

Overall, Hagia Sophia is better because 4 spreads with a Prophet is more likely to happen than 6 spreads with Missionaries. Plus Missionaries cant fully convert a city. Missionaries will suffer attrition which means most of the time, they get one spread each.

If this is how you've used the missionaries from Borobudur, you're doing it wrong. But based on your description, I'm guessing you've never actually experienced building it much because it typically comes at a time when you need to spread faith to your own cities. Even if you've converted all your own cities, convert a CS and then use the second conversion on a civ so that you enter their borders and convert in the same turn: no attrition. Beyond that, you get a Stonehenge amount of faith as well (albeit at a less critical time than Stonehenge).

Personally, I don't often build it because of opportunity cost, not to mention that if I use the missionaries to convert a CS or other civ, the other civs' eventual missionary spam will likely undo my efforts with time. It isn't a favorite wonder of mine and I agree that Hagia Sophia is better. But to say it is absolutely worthless is patently false.

 

[Guandao]

Broadway - 16
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 22
Eiffel Tower - 31
Forbidden Palace- 24
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 23
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 24-3=21, decent wonder, but if I have no cities near desert or build one much later, a civ with a desert start tends to grab it very quickly
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 31+1=32, a good wonder for me, as I like to focus on my culture
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[Crafty Bison]

Broadway - 16
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23 Love love love this wonder, unless I'm slap bang in the middle of a pangea my second or third city is going on the coast for this one, and then the trading company is going on top. The free ship is just so powerful at that point in the game. Also if you get it in the right place you'll see so many more trade routes coming your way, which is another layer to think about in city placement. Plus it's a great switch up if you're bored shooting for civil service right after construction every single game.
Eiffel Tower - 31
Forbidden Palace- 21 For the same reason possibly my favourite wonder got voted off, the pyramids for being liberty contingent, FP gets the down vote because I almost never go patronage. I know it's not 'the done thing', but I just find I don't need it with so many CS quests to do, I'd rather take a couple from exploration, aesthetics or commerce before rationalism opens up. This makes FP only a hindrance for me.
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 23
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 21
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 32
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[GoStu]

If this is how you've used the missionaries from Borobudur, you're doing it wrong. But based on your description, I'm guessing you've never actually experienced building it much because it typically comes at a time when you need to spread faith to your own cities. Even if you've converted all your own cities, convert a CS and then use the second conversion on a civ so that you enter their borders and convert in the same turn: no attrition. Beyond that, you get a Stonehenge amount of faith as well (albeit at a less critical time than Stonehenge).

Personally, I don't often build it because of opportunity cost, not to mention that if I use the missionaries to convert a CS or other civ, the other civs' eventual missionary spam will likely undo my efforts with time. It isn't a favorite wonder of mine and I agree that Hagia Sophia is better. But to say it is absolutely worthless is patently false.

Agree with your assessment: Borobudur is NOT useless. Theology for players going for religion should be reached by the time you've founded, but not quite by the time you've enhanced*.

The free Prophet from Hagia Sophia should be used to enhance if you haven't already, otherwise he's pushed the cost of the next one to 500... and by the time you grab 500 the really good enhancer beliefs are gone. TLDR Hagia Sophia is a way to speed up your enhancer, or to grab a late religion you might not otherwise get.

Borobudur on the other hand gives you six uses of Spread Religion at a time where your religion is probably limited to your Capital. I spend at least one of the missionaries getting two more of my cities to my religion (tripling passive pressure in the neighborhood). Another goes to any nearby city-states. The third often goes to a friendly neighbor with Open Borders.

Again, this is three Missionaries at a time when you can't afford ONE (because you're often waiting for your second Prophet, you're not spending Faith to buy one stinking missionary). It causes a local religious boom. ALSO, most of the time that early in the game cities haven't had much pressure of any kind, therefore the Missionary is virtually the same strength as a Prophet. (Prophet is still the same strength, he just clears the city of all accumulated pressure... at that time there is likely very little)

I swear, too many people on here will make broad statements about uselessness when they haven't actually tried it in game. Bad math & bad theory with no experimentation. Same thing for people slagging Big Benbecause the "social policy is better, 25% > 15%"

 

[GoStu]

Broadway - 16
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 31
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 21
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

+1 to Sistine Chapel. The extra social policies it brings are great, the ability to create more Art than your Palace can hold is great, an early Art theming bonus is great, and the defense if gives you against foreign tourism cannot be understated.

-3 to Louvre. While it's not a bad Wonder if considered in a vacuum, the Exploration tree is a bit of a mess and drags the Wonder down. Fix the tree up and the Louvre would be great in my books.

 

[CultureManiac]

Broadway 16 - 3 = 13 Useless, even for culture victories, as I always save GM for concerts. Never made a great work of art with music
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 31 + 1 = 32 Five happiness and twelve tourism? Really puts the nail in the CV.
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 21
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[Ajay Sabharwal]

Broadway 10
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 21
Porcelain Tower - 17
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

Whatever Culture Maniac said.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

If this is how you've used the missionaries from Borobudur, you're doing it wrong. But based on your description, I'm guessing you've never actually experienced building it much because it typically comes at a time when you need to spread faith to your own cities. Even if you've converted all your own cities, convert a CS and then use the second conversion on a civ so that you enter their borders and convert in the same turn: no attrition. Beyond that, you get a Stonehenge amount of faith as well (albeit at a less critical time than Stonehenge).

Personally, I don't often build it because of opportunity cost, not to mention that if I use the missionaries to convert a CS or other civ, the other civs' eventual missionary spam will likely undo my efforts with time. It isn't a favorite wonder of mine and I agree that Hagia Sophia is better. But to say it is absolutely worthless is patently false.

Totally failed way to use Borobudur. You get it at a time when religions are just starting to spread out, and hopefully, close to when you are going to enhance and get either religious texts or itinerant preachers. You send out your missionaries to strategic target cities (cities in the middle of a cluster of other cities) on your continent, whether they are city states or not -- and especially if they are small cities.

Shortly after that you enhance and then for awhile your religion dominates the whole continent. If you target civs that haven't even got a pantheon yet (e.g., usually germany) the conversions may actually stick for the whole game.

Hagia Sophia is less effective because you get ONE prophet, and while prophets are great, they go to only one place. You don't get the effect of your religion spreading everywhere from every direction.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

Broadway 10
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 21
Porcelain Tower - 17 -3 = 14
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18 +1 = 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12


Henge -- A fantastic wonder, it delivers for the whole game, and the AI doesn't prioritize it so you can often get it. Guarantees you a religion and generates faith that can be used to purchase scientists late game. It is also a wonder that you can build in very many games -- typically, the only thing that would block you is a very aggressive neighbour that forces you to prioritize defense, or a start with so few hammers that you can't build any wonder at all in the early game. It comes up just about the time you are getting the aristocracy hammer bonus, and it is on the beeline path to the National College -- AWESOME! Oh oh oh, and GREAT ENGINEER points mean that yes you are getting a manufactory.

Porcelain Tower - Overrated. I am not going to win the science game through research agreements, I am going to win it by food production, science buildings, and specialists. When it comes you should be prioritizing hammers and food in your capitol in a drive towards building public schools and getting specialists up, so it actually just winds up delaying your science game in my opinion. PLUS -- once I do finally surpass the AI in science, I am going to REFUSE research agreements and use cash to upgrade and advance my military.

 

[Croc104]

Broadway 10 - 3 = 7
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28 + 1 = 29
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19
Petra- 21
Porcelain Tower - 17 -3 = 14
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18 +1 = 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

Broadway - At this point in the game the spaces for great works are largely going to be unused unless you have a stockpile of great musicians. They're much better spent on concert tours at this stage.

Neuschwanstein - Is awesome. It provides a massive boost to gold, culture and happiness. I will also always have castles in all my cities by this time so it's an insta-boost to above mentioned stats. It also looks really cool in game!

 

[Mizeran]

Broadway 10 - 3 = 7
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 28 + 1 = 29
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 19+1 = 20 Finishing tradition asap really helps and with decent production in the capital this wonder is easy to get.
Petra- 21 -3 = 18 This is just a gamble on higher difficulties. If you aim for it and then fail to get it you are really in a bad situation. There are much more reliable strategies, but sure it's a fun wonder to build.
Porcelain Tower - 17 -3 = 14
Prora - 11
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 18 +1 = 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[Guandao]

Broadway- 7+1=8, I don't find this wonder to be too bad, the theming bonus is not difficult for me to get, and I rarely waste my Great Musicians on concert unless there are civs with a strong culture/tourism
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 29
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 20
Petra- 18
Porcelain Tower - 14
Prora - 11-3=8, I don't believe this was a good choice for a Fascist wonder in the game, plus opening Autocracy just for this is not worth it, unless you like to warmonger
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[Maucat]

Broadway- 8
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 23
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 29+1=30 It resolve all my happiness problems... simply great a must for me...
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 20
Petra- 18
Porcelain Tower - 14
Prora - 8-3=5, Pretty useless, unless you like to be a warmonger hated by everyone on the map
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[jlim201]

Broadway- 8
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 24- Gold, more gold.
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 30
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 20
Petra- 18
Porcelain Tower - 14
Prora - 2- It requires Autocracy, the worst ideology.,
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[Memoryjar]

Few couple games after and move to Immortal.

Broadway- 8
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 24
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace- 21 - 3 = 18. I only build it when I have nothing else to do. Never play diplomatic victory. Science or conquest are faster.
Hanging Gardens- 23
Leaning Tower of Pisa- 33
Louvre- 20
Machu Picchu- 21
Neuschwanstein - 30
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle- 20 + 1 = 21 : Culture + free policy + Great Scientist point. Just after completingNational college just in the tempo. Don't have it means have bananas in exhaust pipe (old fashion wink).
Petra- 18
Porcelain Tower - 14
Prora - 2
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue Of Liberty- 31
Stonehenge- 19
Temple of Artemis - 11
Uffizi - 12

 

[gaerraty]

Broadway - 8
Chichen Itza - 27
Colossus - 24
Eiffel Tower - 33
Forbidden Palace - 18
Hanging Gardens - 24 (+1)
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 33
Louvre - 20
Machu Picchu - 21
Neuschwanstein - 30
Notre Dame- 24
Oracle - 21
Petra - 18
Porcelain Tower - 14
Prora - 2
Sistine Chapel - 33
Statue of Liberty - 31
Stonehenge - 19
Temple of Artemis - 8 (–3)
Uffizi - 12

Hanging Gardens: Perhaps one of the most important early game wonders. After this your empire will flourish!

Temple of Artemis: Increased growth is nice but combined with faster ranged unit production I don't find this wonder good enough compared to other important buildings and units available at the same time.