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Wonder Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by MantaRevan, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. GoStu

    GoStu King

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Messages:
    656
    Location:
    Calgary
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 37
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 20
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 7
    Sistine Chapel - 33
    Statue of Liberty - 33
    Stonehenge - 2

    Downvote to Stonehenge. It's not a bad Wonder by any stretch of the imagination, and it does mean you're getting a religion, but that's no guarantee of a good religion. +5 Faith Per Turn is decent but it's kind of meaningless if you've got, say, the Celts, Ethiopia, and Arabia with Desert Folklore out there.

    Upvote to Leaning Tower. It's really hard to argue against any Great Person, let alone one of your choosing plus a bonus to producing any others you wish.
     
  2. Ninakoru

    Ninakoru A deity on Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2002
    Messages:
    658
    Location:
    Madrid, Spain, Europe
    Chichen Itza - 7 - Not bad, but is the worst of the remaining IMO.
    Colossus - 22 - 5 gold plus free route plus free cargo ship on classical era? just too good to keep a healthy economy.
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 37
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 20
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 7
    Sistine Chapel - 33
    Statue of Liberty - 33
    Stonehenge - 2
     
  3. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,244
    Location:
    Lille, France
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 37
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 20
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 7
    Sistine Chapel - 33
    Statue of Liberty - 33 - 3 = 30 : Needs Liberty. I tend to think, if you open Liberty, you don't need extra-hammer from Statue. In my actuel games, I'll go for SV faster with Liberty rather than Order, but when I read post here or watch videos, I realize I miss play Order. With Liberty, I'm going to DV or CV and I don't need hammers when I cross Modern Era.
    Stonehenge - 2 + 1 = 3 : Many players don't go to higher difficults level. Below Immortal, it's a fair deal. Religion without building shrine or faith pantheon. Great Engineer point.
     
  4. Doctor Doom

    Doctor Doom Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    187
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 37
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 20
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8 Defend to the end!
    Sistine Chapel - 33
    Statue of Liberty - = 30
    Stonehenge 0 I honestly think that Stonehenge isn't worth the early hammers. You could easily get out 2 settlers instead :(
     
  5. Biologist

    Biologist Researcher

    Joined:
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    1,088
    Location:
    The lab
    Now that the leaderscreen thread is wrapped up, I might as well help finish this one off.

    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 38 What's not to like? Faster great person generation is always good, and if you pick an Engineer as a reward, you can get a two-for-one deal. Two wonders for the price of one? Yes please.
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 20
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel - 30 Great for cultural victories... not so helpful elsewhere. I generally find better places to spend my hammers at this point in the game.
    Statue of Liberty - 30
     
  6. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    I'd have to disagree with you on your reasoning. The two slots for works of art are quite handy for Culture victory, sure, but the 25% increase in culture generated is awesome for any victory condition. Once you have Acoustics for this Wonder you're just into the Renaissance: one could argue that this helps you unlock Rationalism 25% faster, or move quicker into your ideology.

    I can't fault you if you have a preferred place to put your production at that time, and of course it's your vote and reasoned out, but I want to debate the point that Culture generation is only for Cultural victory.
     
  7. Biologist

    Biologist Researcher

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    I see your point that the extra culture and policies are helpful for other victory types besides Cultural. Still, I seem to find myself focusing on other priorities when I enter the Renaissance. Maybe I've ended up next to Napoleon's musketeer spam one too many times, or maybe I'm biased from having recently finished a game as Korea (tall empire and the specialist slots on my various guilds were filled, so I had extra culture to work with).
     
  8. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Jul 7, 2012
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    Location:
    Austin, TX
    This is a good point actually. The times Statue of Liberty has benefited me the most has been when I stole it - I take Freedom when I'm tall and already pretty much wrapping up my build needs.

    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 38
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 17
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 9
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 30

    Petra: stop it. stop voting this down. it's better than Colossus. Colossus's "free" cargo ship requires a couple triremes to protect it and a second city with a granary to fully leverage it, there's a lot of fine print to squeeze into your early game. the slot is great but Petra is safer and better for a bonus slot.

    Notre Dame: sorry to repeat my last vote but really. I'd rather steal this one with crossbows than tech to physics on time.
     
  9. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,379
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31

    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 38
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 17
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 10
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 30

    +1 to Petra. This wonder bought in the right place will give you a lot of food and production. If you have many desert hills, they all turn into super tiles after building anything on them. It also gives a free trade route, which can be used to send food, production or gold. It's insane. How much production can it give, you ask? A lot. How much food? A lot! With the right start, it's going to give you much more production than SoL while also granting you food and a trade route which can be used to do anything (if you want, you can sack the Caravan and get another Cargo Ship to get double the benefits). And a Great Engineer point. And +5 culture much later on. It also gives all that several eras earlier than SoL, which means the profit will be much bigger, because you've been using it for so long.

    This wonder should at least be in the top 5, and I will protect it.

    -3 to the Eiffel Tower. It's a great wonder, but I can't understand why it has so many points. It is the best cultural wonder which is worth going for even if you don't plan on going cultural because it gives many things. This wonder is nothing gamebreaking though, and it comes kind of late. It should be at 15-10 now at best, not 30, so -3.
     
  10. jlim201

    jlim201 King

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    825
    Location:
    Somewhere North of the South Pole
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 35- Yes, it is great, but is it that much better than everything else?
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 17
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 10
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31- Almost a must build unless I dont take freedom. Even in tall empires, with just scientists and GWAM, you can get 18 production without bonuses. That is a lot of production when put into use. Smaller cities at this point in the game would likely have bad tiles to work so a majority of them become specilaists in the bought buildings.
     
  11. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Chichen Itza - 10+1=11 I'll give another point to this wonder, I see no reasons to give points to the rest (they are either high enough in points or have specific city requirements)
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 35
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 23-3=20 I think being equal to Machu Picchu would be good :mischief:, plus both have mountain city requirements (no building this on island dominated maps unless there's mountainous islands)
    Notre Dame - 17
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 10
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31
     
  12. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 Mitten Marauder

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    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Chichen Itza - 11
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 21
    Notre Dame - 17
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 10
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Voted down the Leaning Tower just to make it lean a little bit more. :lol:
    Voted up Neuschwanstein because those bonuses. :king:
     
  13. jlim201

    jlim201 King

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    825
    Location:
    Somewhere North of the South Pole
    Chichen Itza - 11
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 21
    Notre Dame - 18- 10 happiness, Yay!
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 7- Its the least likely wonder left to be built. You want to be near mountains, observatories, you want to be on the coast for ships but you dont want to be on the desert without flood plains.
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31
     
  14. GoStu

    GoStu King

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    656
    Location:
    Calgary
    Chichen Itza - 11
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 21 + 1 = 22
    Notre Dame - 18 -3 = 15
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 7
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Upvoting Neuschwanstein again for the potential huge amounts of happiness, gold, and culture it gives. Even for a paltry 4-city empire it's still 4 happiness, 8 culture, and 12 gold per turn. If you actually expand your empire a bit the numbers get staggering.

    Downvote to Notre Dame. 10 Happiness and 4 Faith are nothing to sneer at, but this can be gotten other ways. Also, in my books this Wonder is better to steal than to build as it makes no difference exactly where it is in your empire.
     
  15. CHEESE!

    CHEESE! On a long nostalgia trip

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    Chichen Itza - 11
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 20
    Neuschwanstein - 22 + 1 = 23
    Notre Dame - 15 - 3 = 12
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 7
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Down with Notre Dame, up with Neuschwanstein, for the exact same reasons as above. Notre Dame is nice to have, and if it's free, sure, I'll take it, but NSS does everything it does and more, and AI's aren't obsessed with it to boot.
     
  16. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Nov 20, 2011
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    This thread again? Mind you, I think the last one was pre-BNW.

    Haven't followed it so far - why's Petra now so low? It's arguably quite not as good as it used to be, but it does now give its gold without you having to work it, so its boost kicks in earlier.

    Chichen Itza should be on 7 at this point - it was downvoted in the previous post.

    Where have the Hanging Gardens gone? It's still the game's best Wonder (BNW didn't really add any especially good Wonders, although it drastically improved a few existing one, Colossus and Eiffel among them).

    As for Stonehenge, the GE point is its biggest sell, but if anything it can get you your first GE too early to be especially useful if you're also going for other GE Wonders, such as Petra. There are much more reliable ways to get early faith now, and some of the newer pantheon beliefs really reduce Stonehenge's value - Tears of the Gods can give ridiculous amounts, since pearls and gems often cluster, and are good tiles to work early (unlike many desert tiles with Desert Folklore).
     
  17. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Okay, I'll join the voting. Correcting CI (which should now be 8, as a downvote from 10 was missed and it's since been voted for once):

    Chichen Itza - 8
    Colossus - 21
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 12
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Choosing two I've visited, coincidentally enough...

    Machu Picchu: Since BNW, I just don't find myself building it often. I'm not very sure why not, since city connections via harbours are usually my main source of income, however for this reason it does suit a rather specific start with access to both multiple landmasses (or at least a long coastline), and somewhere with a mountain to build the Wonder. I get more income from trade than from roads. While I still tend to play fairly wide, it seems the "metagame" (insofar as Civ V has one) focuses on building tall more than in the prior versions of Civ V, reducing MP's utility further. It's not the worst of the remaining Wonders, but it's ranked a bit too high at the moment.

    Petra: Reasons much as I gave above. As someone pointed out, it's not a free caravan, it's a free trade route - a very much more valuable commodity. The caravan's just a perk. Desert is still a useful area to find resources, even though thinking in isolation it's of less utility than some other areas (and nothing stops you finding mountains in desert), so I don't think it's correct to argue that "it's less likely to be built"; Civ maps and starting locations vary too much to make this kind of assessment. It's more likely than the Colossus to be built on a Pangea, for a start, while I often struggle to find suitable mountains.
     
  18. Liufeng

    Liufeng A man of his time

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    Chichen Itza - 9 - Longer golden age and happiness, it sure makes a man happy !
    Colossus - 18 - It's very good, but among the remaining wonders, it's the one I choose the least
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 23
    Notre Dame - 12
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31
     
  19. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 Mitten Marauder

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    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Chichen Itza - 9
    Colossus - 15
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 24
    Notre Dame - 12
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel - 30
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Up vote for Neuschwanstein due to bonuses.
    Down vote for Colossus because compared to the remaining wonders, it's just not as good.
     
  20. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,408
    Location:
    Maryland
    Chichen Itza - 9
    Colossus - 16
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 24
    Notre Dame - 12
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel - 27
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    The colossus is on an awkward spot on the tech tree, but having an additional trade route/cargo ship is really awesome. This is a must have for some civs.

    Maybe it's because I don't usually play tourism style, but in BNW most of my culture is usually from city states until the late game. If I'm in the tech lead, I'll definitely get this, but I can also live without this wonder.
     

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