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Wonder Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by MantaRevan, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. Zaimejs

    Zaimejs Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,014
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Chichen Itza - 9
    Colossus - 13
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 24
    Notre Dame - 12
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 9
    Sistine Chapel - 27
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Now that you mention it, I very rarely build the Colossus. Only if I get an amazing water start will I take time to get iron and go for it. Sistine Chapel was also almost voted down by me.

    I love Petra.
     
  2. GoStu

    GoStu King

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Messages:
    656
    Location:
    Calgary
    Chichen Itza - 9
    Colossus - 13
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 25
    Notre Dame - 9
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 9
    Sistine Chapel - 27
    Statue of Liberty - 31

    Upvoting Neuschwanstein again. The mountain restriction shouldn't be that tough as you should often try and settle near mountains anyways for observatories.

    Downvoting Notre Dame. It's good, ten happiness is still nice and all, but of the ones left it's the only one that's totally replaceable to me. I can get Happiness other ways, and I can steal this back from somebody later at little cost.
     
  3. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City
    Chichen Itza - 9
    Colossus - 13
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 25
    Notre Dame - 9-3=6 it's a good wonder, but in a tech I don't usually rush for, as I'm not a warmonger often
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 9
    Sistine Chapel - 27+1=28 boost in cities's culture is great
    Statue of Liberty - 31
     
  4. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,020
    Upvoting Petra again, and downvoting Colossus - the disparity is too great, and in the wrong direction.

    Both Wonders give you a trade route - all you're paying for with the Colossus is a cargo ship as that route's first occupant instead of a caravan. Petra doesn't force you to use either the caravan or a route originating from the Petra city (if inland) - it will give you exactly the same food bonus by sea as the Colossus if you use its extra route for a cargo ship.

    In exchange for the Colossus giving you a slightly more expensive trade unit than Petra for free, you get a bonus that only works with sea tiles, which unless you have resources are of marginal value while desert tiles are more varied and can be more valuable, and the boost to gold is less meaningful than production and food boosts. Plus you don't get the Archaeology culture bonus, and you generate GM rather than GE points.

    So why on Earth has the Colossus had so many more points than Petra up to now? A Petra city can be game-winning, no one even talks about a 'Colossus city', and the Colossus' main effect is so marginal that people aren't even discussing it, talking only about the cargo ship.
     
  5. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Chichen Itza - 9
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 17
    Neuschwanstein - 25
    Notre Dame - 6
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 11
    Sistine Chapel -28
    Statue of Liberty - 28

    For a little variety this time I'll downvote SoL. Same reason as before, tend to build it when already in tech and culture lead, all it usually does in practice is shave some turns off where the win was already guaranteed. Great to steal otherwise.

    Petra - someone remarked that you wouldn't want to be in desert. But obviously Petra exists to make deserts good - and is the reason they can be better than any other start. Obviously less impressive in some instances, especially on a second city without lots of Oasis tiles.

    The other bonus Petra has over Colossus is that it's on the science tech path. Learning Ironworking delays your science which delays when you gain all your other trade route techs for the rest of the game. If I'm teching fast it's just as good as having a bonus slot that I can steal later anyway.
     
  6. sendos

    sendos Immortal

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,134
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Chichen Itza - 10 Combine with freedom and your golden age duration is doubled. Also makes great artists a tad more useful with their golden age bomb. Also provides some happiness as icing on the cake.
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14 You need a mountain nearby and it's not ideal for tall empires. However, it is great for wide empires. But wide empires are not so popular these days.
    Neuschwanstein - 25
    Notre Dame - 6
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 11
    Sistine Chapel -28
    Statue of Liberty - 28
     
  7. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 Mitten Marauder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    321
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 31
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Notre Dame - 6
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel -28
    Statue of Liberty - 28

    Neuschwanstein gets the up vote for those bonuses.

    Petra gets a down vote because desert is not preferable to a mountain in many cases.
     
  8. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,020
    You somehow lost the Colossus from your list - it was on 10 in the previous post.
     
  9. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,244
    Location:
    Lille, France
    Chichen Itza - 10
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 31 + 1 = 32 : Enough to manage AI CV when I'll go for SVor DV.
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Notre Dame - 6 - 3 = 3 : I'd prefer have Chichen Itza. + 4 happiness is enough in many of my games. It needs hammers when I have to build workshops or units.
    Oracle - 23
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel -28
    Statue of Liberty - 28
     
  10. Sidor1982

    Sidor1982 Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Poland
    Chichen Itza - 7 (-3) Out of the remaining ones most difficult to get and not worth beelining for. Civil service tech is a non priority tech (even going for education theology is more useful to go for first). And the AI loves it for no apparent reason.
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 32
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Notre Dame - 3
    Oracle - 24 (+1) Relatively easy to get (unless you play against AI's that love it (like Egypt or the Mayans), gives huge boost in culture, speeds up teching when used properly (like faster Scholaristicism when going for a lot of CS strategy) and additional GS point.
    Petra - 8
    Sistine Chapel -28
    Statue of Liberty - 28
     
  11. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 Mitten Marauder

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    Gender:
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    Location:
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    Oops! Must have been when I was cleaning up the comment from the previous vote. :hammer2:
     
  12. rawrtrav

    rawrtrav Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    83
    Chichen Itza - 7 - 3 = 4
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 32
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Notre Dame - 3
    Oracle - 24
    Petra - 8 + 1 = 9
    Sistine Chapel -28
    Statue of Liberty - 28


    Chichen Itza could be a good wonder. +4 happiness is nice at that point in the game, and more length in Golden Ages is always a nice little bonus, however, compared to all the other wonders left here, it has a relatively small impact on the game overall. On top of this, the AI seems to love this, meaning you very rarely build it on anything higher than Prince.


    Petra on the other hand can be a complete game changer. If you're in desert, with a nice split between flood plains and desert hills, then you manage to get Petra, you will have the most powerful city in the game, by far. The caravan is nice as well. There are better wonders left in my opinion, but Petra is too low in comparison to the rest at the moment.
     
  13. CHEESE!

    CHEESE! On a long nostalgia trip

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    Gender:
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    Chichen Itza - 4
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 32 + 1 = 33
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Notre Dame - 3 - 3 = 0 ELIMINATED
    Oracle - 24
    Petra - 9
    Sistine Chapel - 28
    Statue of Liberty - 28

    Reasons against Notre Dame already well-covered; it's great but can be gained elsewhere, and it's a lot of production for two luxuries and a Dutch. Since the AI loves it, it's difficult to get at higher levels, and it's not wonderfully useful for a tall empire that isn't Persia or Brazil. Since I'd say it's the worst on the list (significantly worse than Chichen Itza, which is also certain to go), bye, ND.
     
  14. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I'm glad everyone joined me in my war against Notre Dame. It had become a nuisance.
     
  15. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,408
    Location:
    Maryland
    Chichen Itza - 4
    Colossus - 10
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Oracle - 24
    Petra - 6
    Sistine Chapel - 28
    Statue of Liberty - 28

    Even when I'm not going tourism, the Eiffel tower is still useful. It comes at a point in the tech tree when there isn't anything better to get, so it's a great wonder with little opportunity cost.

    Petra is amazing, but it also is the only wonder here that legitimately costs me games sometimes. Placing a Petra city is a risk, and the higher the difficulty level you get, the higher the risk it is. A good Petra city can basically win you the game, while a good potential petra city with no petra can sometimes place you far behind. This wonder is powerful, but it's the only one that forces you to dramatically alter your game to get, and failing to get it can be as damaging as getting it can be good.
     
  16. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,020
    There's an indirect buff in BNW that is being neglected, I feel. You build "Petra cities" mainly in areas that are good for production (as a production boost from good desert resources/hills is better than 1 food on tiles that produce 0 to begin with) and short of food.

    Prior to BNW, indeed, this sort of city could be suicide if you lose Petra, as you say, or at least suboptimal. But BNW adds food caravans - say you have a city like my York in a recent game (at work, so no screenshot), which is mainly desert hills; you can just send food to it to keep it producing on what are already good hill tiles.

    What's more, Petra's requirements aren't really any more punishing than the requirements for a standard production city - you still want to settle hills, which don't produce food whatever terrain type they are, and you still want some food access, since Petra isn't going to cover all your food needs. So a lot of the time you'll be building a Petra city in much the same type of area you'd want to build a production city anyway.
     
  17. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Gender:
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    Chichen Itza - 4
    Colossus - 10 +1=11
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 14 -3 = 11
    Neuschwanstein - 26
    Oracle - 24
    Petra - 6
    Sistine Chapel - 28
    Statue of Liberty - 28

    Colossus got the vote because of the early extra trade route one could get and Machu lost the vote because of its need to be next to the mountains.
     
  18. GoStu

    GoStu King

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Messages:
    656
    Location:
    Calgary
    Chichen Itza - 4
    Colossus - 11
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 11
    Neuschwanstein - 27
    Oracle - 21
    Petra - 6
    Sistine Chapel - 28
    Statue of Liberty - 28

    Downvote to Oracle. Nice, good timing and culture, but no irreplaceable effect.

    Upvote to super magic mountain castle. I like playing wide, and this is worth 3 of culture, money, and happiness for me. I will tech railroad to get it, I will wage war against anyone but a long term friend to get it.
     
  19. Winsling

    Winsling Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    62
    Phil, I think you're mixing the versions of the Colossus. Prior to BNW, it gave +1 gold/water tile - in BNW it gives a flat +5 gold, plus adds gold to trade routes to the Colossus city.

    It's really tough to evaluate its affect in BNW; it adds gold per trade route, but it's also probable that it picks up additional trade routes that that city (and possibly your civ) wouldn't have gotten.
     
  20. jlim201

    jlim201 King

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Messages:
    825
    Location:
    Somewhere North of the South Pole
    Chichen Itza - 4
    Colossus - 11
    Eiffel Tower - 34
    Leaning Tower of Pisa - 32
    Machu Picchu - 11
    Neuschwanstein - 27
    Oracle - 18- One free SP isnt that much, and its not exactly "free".
    Petra - 6
    Sistine Chapel - 29- First "Art Slots", so you dont have to hoard those Great Artists until Museum, Hermitage, etc, costing you valuable tourism or culture.
    Statue of Liberty - 28
     

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