Cahillicus
Warlord
Eiffel Tower - 18
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 28
Statue of Liberty - 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 28
Statue of Liberty - 7
Wonder Elimination Thread
- Thread starter MantaRevan
- Start date
SemperFi2382
Mitten Marauder
Eiffel Tower - 18
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 29
Statue of Liberty - 4
Up voted Sistine Chapel for the GW slots and Culture boost.
Down voted Statue of Liberty because turn shaving doesn't justify being in the top wonders. If you're using it to shave turns off a game you've already won, then it's not that big of a game changer.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 29
Statue of Liberty - 4
Up voted Sistine Chapel for the GW slots and Culture boost.
Down voted Statue of Liberty because turn shaving doesn't justify being in the top wonders. If you're using it to shave turns off a game you've already won, then it's not that big of a game changer.
Eiffel Tower - 15
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 29
Statue of Liberty - 5
Up to Statue of Liberty, down to Eiffel. The Statue of Liberty is less of a turn-shaver than Eiffel in my books. In a stiff contest between two tall Freedom civs, Statue of Liberty is going to make a difference for the player who has it. Same for between good Freedom civ and a wide Order, or Autocracy. The extra social policy can get you your level 3 tenet of choice faster.
Down for Eiffel. It really does just make CV a little faster. 12 Tourism is nice, but that doesn't get multiplied by Hotels or Airports to my knowledge: it's just 12 and 24 after Internet. Compare that to a Globe Theatre or something and Eiffel's not really much better. No culture, just a tourist attraction.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 29
Statue of Liberty - 5
Up to Statue of Liberty, down to Eiffel. The Statue of Liberty is less of a turn-shaver than Eiffel in my books. In a stiff contest between two tall Freedom civs, Statue of Liberty is going to make a difference for the player who has it. Same for between good Freedom civ and a wide Order, or Autocracy. The extra social policy can get you your level 3 tenet of choice faster.
Down for Eiffel. It really does just make CV a little faster. 12 Tourism is nice, but that doesn't get multiplied by Hotels or Airports to my knowledge: it's just 12 and 24 after Internet. Compare that to a Globe Theatre or something and Eiffel's not really much better. No culture, just a tourist attraction.
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
Eiffel Tower - 15
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 2
Help the statue on its way out. All that's really left to say in its favour is that the social policy is better-timed for getting a strong ideology finisher than those from certain other Wonders; still, that didn't save Prora.
Upvote for Sistine Chapel since there's nothing left to say about Pisa. Renaissance with 2 GW slots plus a theme bonus means that it's going to outproduce Eiffel Tower, which looks attractive with its base +12 tourism but that's really only twice the output of SC or Globe with their slots filled, for which you're waiting until the Modern Era when +12 tourism a turn just isn't all that much (plus SC gets a boost from Aesthetics and being France, which ET doesn't). And unlike Globe, for the Chapel this is only a secondary effect. It's not too good outside heavy culture play, because base culture yields are so low without a focus on Great Works, but for strategies that can use it, it will grab you more than one new social policy over its lifetime.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 2
Help the statue on its way out. All that's really left to say in its favour is that the social policy is better-timed for getting a strong ideology finisher than those from certain other Wonders; still, that didn't save Prora.
Upvote for Sistine Chapel since there's nothing left to say about Pisa. Renaissance with 2 GW slots plus a theme bonus means that it's going to outproduce Eiffel Tower, which looks attractive with its base +12 tourism but that's really only twice the output of SC or Globe with their slots filled, for which you're waiting until the Modern Era when +12 tourism a turn just isn't all that much (plus SC gets a boost from Aesthetics and being France, which ET doesn't). And unlike Globe, for the Chapel this is only a secondary effect. It's not too good outside heavy culture play, because base culture yields are so low without a focus on Great Works, but for strategies that can use it, it will grab you more than one new social policy over its lifetime.
jlim201
King
Eiffel Tower - 12- The only wonder left that I am willing to ignore in a game.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 3- Dont knock it out yet, production is very powerful.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 3- Dont knock it out yet, production is very powerful.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,213
Eiffel Tower - 12
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42-3=39
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 3 +1=4
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 42-3=39
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 3 +1=4
Eiffel Tower - 12 - 3 = 9
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 39
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 4 + 1 = 5
Eiffel Tower is good but it's effects are negligible compared to the rest that are left.
I think people are forgetting that as well as the extra production from Statue of Liberty, you also get an extra policy. Plus, I wouldn't necessarily see Statue of Liberty as extra production, but as the ability to move production from terrain to specialists, meaning you also get the benefits of the extra science and whatever else those specialists give. Say you're in a plains area, and you have a city with population of at least 30, 2 internal trade routes going to it - pretty standard. By the time you get to SoL, you should have the policy that gives +2 science from each specialist. Before the SoL, I'd probably only have specialists in my University/Public School and maybe Research Lab (Or my GW buildings if I'm going for tourism) if I have that built, but with SoL I can move population from those +3 food +1 hammer tiles and put my specialists in place instead, resulting in possibly getting:
8 Gold (4 merchant specialists)
8 Hammers (4 engineer specialists)
16 Beakers (8 extra specialists in total)
And an extra 8 hammers for the 8 specialists in total.
If you then time these by the city-modifiers, it ends up being:
15 Gold
21 Hammers
32 Beakers (With free thought, which you should be able to get with the free policy from the SoL if you haven't already got it!)
So when you think about it that way, the SoL basically adds at least 10% of everything onto what you're producing. And of course, this is per city, so it could go up exponentially. If you have all your specialists filled up before this point, then I'd say that you've either figured out a way to get a huge city that I haven't seen yet, or you're not going for a tall empire, which is a much more difficult way to play in BNW.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 39
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 4 + 1 = 5
Eiffel Tower is good but it's effects are negligible compared to the rest that are left.
I think people are forgetting that as well as the extra production from Statue of Liberty, you also get an extra policy. Plus, I wouldn't necessarily see Statue of Liberty as extra production, but as the ability to move production from terrain to specialists, meaning you also get the benefits of the extra science and whatever else those specialists give. Say you're in a plains area, and you have a city with population of at least 30, 2 internal trade routes going to it - pretty standard. By the time you get to SoL, you should have the policy that gives +2 science from each specialist. Before the SoL, I'd probably only have specialists in my University/Public School and maybe Research Lab (Or my GW buildings if I'm going for tourism) if I have that built, but with SoL I can move population from those +3 food +1 hammer tiles and put my specialists in place instead, resulting in possibly getting:
8 Gold (4 merchant specialists)
8 Hammers (4 engineer specialists)
16 Beakers (8 extra specialists in total)
And an extra 8 hammers for the 8 specialists in total.
If you then time these by the city-modifiers, it ends up being:
15 Gold
21 Hammers
32 Beakers (With free thought, which you should be able to get with the free policy from the SoL if you haven't already got it!)
So when you think about it that way, the SoL basically adds at least 10% of everything onto what you're producing. And of course, this is per city, so it could go up exponentially. If you have all your specialists filled up before this point, then I'd say that you've either figured out a way to get a huge city that I haven't seen yet, or you're not going for a tall empire, which is a much more difficult way to play in BNW.
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
Eiffel Tower - 6
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 39
Sistine Chapel - 31
Statue of Liberty - 5
Downvote to Eiffel Tower, for no better reason than it lets me say: ET, go home. It's much of a muchness with Statue of Liberty, and neither should have made it this far. It hits at just the wrong time for +12 tourism to be a game-changer.
Upvote Sistine Chapel. It hits at just the right time for +6 tourism (plus effects that boost theming bonus) to be a game-changer, and that's only its secondary effect. Not to mention, art slots are more valuable at this game stage than writing or music slots (you don't yet have a musicians' guild, but you've probably had an artists' guild long enough to fill your palace, while writing slots aren't in especially short supply).
No, not forgetting it, any more than we're forgetting that Eiffel Tower gives +5 happiness. It's just not a bonus - coming when it does - that warrants top 5 status. If it were the Oracle, which should still be here, then yes, but with SoL it's a somewhat minor perk, and one that didn't save either Sydney Opera House or Prora (which come at much the same time in the tech tree, though Sydney is a little too late).
That may be somewhat specific to your playstyle - most people I think will at least have the engineer slots filled as well as the scientist slots, and all 6 guild slots in whichever city's producing them. Which restricts your perks other than the production bonus (which is somewhat trivial outside a production city, where you'll certainly have your engineer slots filled) to what you can get from the merchant specialists; a gold boost that by this game stage is trivial, +4 production per city, and +8 science - the latter not bad, but hardly gamebreaking. If you have 30 pop, you're well on the way to being forced by population size to fill up any surplus population slots anyway.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 39
Sistine Chapel - 31
Statue of Liberty - 5
Downvote to Eiffel Tower, for no better reason than it lets me say: ET, go home. It's much of a muchness with Statue of Liberty, and neither should have made it this far. It hits at just the wrong time for +12 tourism to be a game-changer.
Upvote Sistine Chapel. It hits at just the right time for +6 tourism (plus effects that boost theming bonus) to be a game-changer, and that's only its secondary effect. Not to mention, art slots are more valuable at this game stage than writing or music slots (you don't yet have a musicians' guild, but you've probably had an artists' guild long enough to fill your palace, while writing slots aren't in especially short supply).
No, not forgetting it, any more than we're forgetting that Eiffel Tower gives +5 happiness. It's just not a bonus - coming when it does - that warrants top 5 status. If it were the Oracle, which should still be here, then yes, but with SoL it's a somewhat minor perk, and one that didn't save either Sydney Opera House or Prora (which come at much the same time in the tech tree, though Sydney is a little too late).
That may be somewhat specific to your playstyle - most people I think will at least have the engineer slots filled as well as the scientist slots, and all 6 guild slots in whichever city's producing them. Which restricts your perks other than the production bonus (which is somewhat trivial outside a production city, where you'll certainly have your engineer slots filled) to what you can get from the merchant specialists; a gold boost that by this game stage is trivial, +4 production per city, and +8 science - the latter not bad, but hardly gamebreaking. If you have 30 pop, you're well on the way to being forced by population size to fill up any surplus population slots anyway.
SemperFi2382
Mitten Marauder
Eiffel Tower - 6
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 39
Sistine Chapel - 32
Statue of Liberty - 2
Voted down to Statue of Liberty because compared to the Leaning Tower or Sistine Chapel, it's just not in the same league.
Vote up Sistine Chapel. There's so much going for it, and of what's left on the field, it easy belongs in the top 3.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 39
Sistine Chapel - 32
Statue of Liberty - 2
Voted down to Statue of Liberty because compared to the Leaning Tower or Sistine Chapel, it's just not in the same league.
Vote up Sistine Chapel. There's so much going for it, and of what's left on the field, it easy belongs in the top 3.
Cahillicus
Warlord
Eiffel Tower - 6
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 40
Sistine Chapel - 32
Statue of Liberty - 0
How SOL got here instead of Great Library or Louvre is ridiculous.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 40
Sistine Chapel - 32
Statue of Liberty - 0
How SOL got here instead of Great Library or Louvre is ridiculous.
GhostSalsa
Emperor
This thread has cursed me. I just lost on petra. What's worse is that I lost it to a AI city with only one desert hill tile whereas I had 9 - the utter travesty of it - the utter waste and ugliness - i'm crying
Eiffel Tower - 3
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 41
Sistine Chapel - 32
I'll help move things to their inevitable end. I'm glad Eiffel is 3rd because I consider it useful for "pressure insurance" way beyond its utility for a culture victory. Eiffel makes it safer to be the civ that chooses ideology first. LT is LT it is number 1. Haha the best wonder the world ever made is a tower that leans over kinda.
Eiffel Tower - 3
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 41
Sistine Chapel - 32
I'll help move things to their inevitable end. I'm glad Eiffel is 3rd because I consider it useful for "pressure insurance" way beyond its utility for a culture victory. Eiffel makes it safer to be the civ that chooses ideology first. LT is LT it is number 1. Haha the best wonder the world ever made is a tower that leans over kinda.
Eiffel Tower - 6
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 37
Sistine Chapel - 33
Plus to Sistine, Minus to Pisa. Leaning Tower is good, but I don't think it deserves the landslide over everything else it's getting. Half its strength (in my opinion) is that you can cheese out a Great Engineer and snipe the Globe Theatre on the same tech.
Sistine Chapel is really strong in my opinion, it shows up when your Culture output is starting to get noticable and you can actually save your second and third artworks in it. Over time that culture boost could be like 3-4 more policies and a lot of defense against enemy ideologies.
I disagree, Great Library got voted out for the very good reason that it's not really possible to build above a certain difficulty. Louvre went out for a reasonable cause too: Exploration is a pretty mediocre tree, so there's an opportunity cost of a potentially better social policy.
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 37
Sistine Chapel - 33
Plus to Sistine, Minus to Pisa. Leaning Tower is good, but I don't think it deserves the landslide over everything else it's getting. Half its strength (in my opinion) is that you can cheese out a Great Engineer and snipe the Globe Theatre on the same tech.
Sistine Chapel is really strong in my opinion, it shows up when your Culture output is starting to get noticable and you can actually save your second and third artworks in it. Over time that culture boost could be like 3-4 more policies and a lot of defense against enemy ideologies.
I disagree, Great Library got voted out for the very good reason that it's not really possible to build above a certain difficulty. Louvre went out for a reasonable cause too: Exploration is a pretty mediocre tree, so there's an opportunity cost of a potentially better social policy.
Cahillicus
Warlord
I guess your right. I only play on king, so I can usually get it and am probably not the best judge.
It is stupid getting the starter for a branch you'll most likely never use, but I find it worth it. My point is while SOL is not to shabby of a wonder, certainly, people could find better ones to make it to the top 5?
GhostSalsa
Emperor
*cries* exploration is a beautiful tree u guise. No one appreciates unit speed.
Anyway every high-competition wonder was penalized on this thread for being hard to get vs AI preference - the Louvre's location in Exploration adds value by that exact same logic - in that you can actually get it most games. Also much much easier to theme than Uffizi or Broadway.
Anyway every high-competition wonder was penalized on this thread for being hard to get vs AI preference - the Louvre's location in Exploration adds value by that exact same logic - in that you can actually get it most games. Also much much easier to theme than Uffizi or Broadway.
Two of these overlapped, so before my post it should be
Eiffel: 3
Leaning Tower: 38
Sistine: 33
So I will KILL the Eiffel
Eiffel: 0
Leaning Tower: 39
Sistine 33:
HanNorwood
.exe
Leaning Tower: 39
Sistine: 34
I downed the Tower, because, though I love it, I am a culture buff.
Sistine: 34
I downed the Tower, because, though I love it, I am a culture buff.
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
Great Library has no place anywhere close to the top, but much better Wonders than both that and SoL have fallen by the wayside (yes, the Louvre among them, which is almost strictly better than Eiffel in basically the same strategies).
I lost nearly everything except Petra in my last game, and lost the game by 6 turns (the number of turns behind Pedro I was on finishing the final spaceship part) - getting Pisa or Porcelain Tower would have won me the game (Catherine got PT and was the earliest contender for science victory. So I set Shaka on her. Unfortunately Pedro was on a different continent).
While that's fair enough in isolation, look at what remained (until very recently). The opportunity cost of opening Exploration isn't big enough to justify ranking Louvre low while keeping Eiffel for the top three. Plenty of people open Patronage just for Forbidden Palace - sure Patronage is a better tree than Exploration, but if you're only getting the opener and not filling out the tree, that doesn't much matter.
Next page has an old list, so I'm bumping this to the next page.
jlim201
King
Why, Statue of Liberty?
