Wonders - the good, the bad and the ugly

[roberteriksson]

Do Pyramids make it cheaper to produce a worker. Or does it make it faster for worker to improve land?

It makes it faster to improve land.

 

[Nite Owl]

Do Pyramids make it cheaper to produce a worker. Or does it make it faster for worker to improve land?

My understanding is that The Pyramids make the workers improve the land faster.

Edit: My response got beat - please delete. At least let me know how I can delete this message. I can not find a 'delete' option on this 'edit message' page.

 

[Dorkhan]

Hanging Gardens comes too early in this game to make the population bonus worth it. You're lucky if you have 3 cities at that point and none of them are big.

Yeaaah.... if you are BUILDING settlers. You can also capture cities/city-states and BUY some settlers from the cash you've got from trading surplus luxury resources and raiding barbarian encampments.

 

[DalekDavros]

And fish or no fish, your coastal cities will work all the coastal tiles in their area sooner or later... so +1 food from them is great.

I've never worked a non-resource coastal tile. The city radius is big enough that it's not necessary and I'd starve the population before I'd let them waste 1 happiness working a 1f1g tile (and Colossus most definitely obsoletes before the superior land tiles are all used anyway). Look at the upkeep on the happiness buildings or the costs to buy 30 turns of a lux resource. You can't get 1 happiness for 1 gold, so the citizen you have on that tile is dead weight.

* Eiffel Tower - +8 Happiness - right when you start expanding and need it the most.

Meh. Hammers are expensive and gold is cheap. A happiness building is a better deal, even with the gpt cost.

* Louvre - I typically dislike specialist-giving wonders but two artists isn't something I can easily come up with and two Landmarks boosts to culture in an otherwise useless tiles quickly pay for the wonder.

Landmarks are worthless by the time you get to this. Either take the golden age or culture bomb (the CB is most useful for a cultural victory, as you'll have settled all the cities you're going to settle before you know that a key strat resource is outside your city radii).

* Oracle - 1 free social policy. This early in the game you get new policies quite quickly still, so it's not as crucial as if it would come late - and AI likes this one quite a lot so losing a race for it is very common.

Extremely powerful for the reasons that others have mentioned. But unfortunately also hard to get.

* Chichen Itza - 50% length of golden ages in the game - which are huge bonus nowadays and this wonder is very useful especially for smaller happier civilizations. I don't kill myself if I lose a race for it, but it's still worth at least a try.

As others have noted, it's fantastic. Also, if you got Stonehenge, this one comes online just about the time that the Great Engineer does.

* Kremlin - +50% defensive building power in cities. Except noone builds them - and noone ever defends back home rather taking the fight to enemy after initial wrestling.

If you're playing for a cultural victory at a high difficulty level (and especially if you aren't going for puppets to create a buffer zone of cities you don't really care about), then you're building defensive buildings or you're losing. The demands of building and the limit on cities means that you're going to have a small military, so you need to do everything you can to make the units you do have count. Walls+Castle+Kremlin+right SPs are quite a deterrent.

 

[DalekDavros]

The grudge I had against Oracle is that I can either get Philosophy or get Iron Working - and I much prefer Iron before I start my next cities so I don't settle that one tile too far.

Learn Philosophy while the GL is building and taking Civil Service for the free tech. Save up SPs to buy the first three policies in Patronage after you have it and as much gold as you can for maritime city-states and you'll actually end up expanding faster than you would have if you'd gotten the settlers out earlier.

 

[Tutkarz]

I never took Hanging Gardens since i was afraid it will net me more unhappy faces (due to incrased population) that it adds happines. Im always expanding and i have always too many cities so i just cant afford another unhappy heads.

 

[Magil]

Note that the Porcelain Tower is effectively another Great Library (or more if you prefer the academy/golden age), though it costs about three times as many hammers. It may be a bit underrated--it's certainly strong if you've got a city that can produce it.

 

[bhavv]

Note that the Porcelain Tower is effectively another Great Library (or more if you prefer the academy/golden age), though it costs about three times as many hammers. It may be a bit underrated--it's certainly strong if you've got a city that can produce it.

+2 GS points and a free Great Scientist that doesnt add to your timer is very very nice, especially for Babylon.

[Oracle] Extremely powerful for the reasons that others have mentioned. But unfortunately also hard to get.

Its not hard to get at all, I have easily managed to build Pyramids, Stonehenge, Great Library and Oracle in my capital on King difficulty while also settling 5 cities and getting Civil Service and Acoustics by 750 BC even with Ramesses as an AI opponent.

 

[Rylune]

So far my favorite wonder is Great Library, especially if I am near a lot of rivers or find plenty of Maritime allies.

Rush for Writing. Get Great Library. While it is building, grab Philosophy. It finishes and lets you grab Theology which puts you into the next Era so you can use Patronage social policies. From there you can bribe your way to a huge advantage early game especially if you find a few Maritime city-states.

Even better is if you are Babylon. You can use your free tech from Writing to grab Philosophy and research trapping while working on the Library. Then use it to give you Civil Service. There you are now one era ahead, get bonus food on river farms (good if you don't want to rely on city-states or not cannot find maritime ones), and have access to Pikemen. From there you can grab a Library, put two citizens into that and start cranking out the great scientists. You get a huge tech advantage.

Stonehenge and Oracle are nice but I rarely have a chance to grab them if I get Great Library. And unless I am going for Utopia Project, I'd rather have the tech advantage.

For multiplayer teams, it is really nice to coordinate this. One goes for Great Library to rush to Civil Service. The other for Stonehenge (and probably Oracle... they may be able to get both depending on start location and their leader). That means they will max out Patronage fast and can get moving incredibly quickly. I can only imagine Babylon/India as a team doing this. Babylon goes Great Library while India goes for the SPs and bribes city states so they get a few huge cities. May have to try that on Immortal or even Deity with my friend.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

* Statue of Liberty - +1 production from specialists in all cities. Who needs production, money can buy all...

That's between 10-15 production in large cities in late-game, which translates to 50-100 gold (purchase costs) per turn, per large city. It's an incredibly powerful wonder, especially combined with freedom and rationalism.

 

[taltamir]

I've never worked a non-resource coastal tile. The city radius is big enough that it's not necessary and I'd starve the population before I'd let them waste 1 happiness working a 1f1g tile

lighthouse = +1 f from coastal tile
seaport = +2 hammers from coastal tile
together they make a coastal tile
2f 2h 1g
not too shabby... with colossus that goes up some more...

as for them working it or not... it depends entirely on difficulty level... on the default one you get big healthy cities that will work all tiles...
on prince and above your happiness is in the horsehockeyter and you are better off starving them then letting them overbreed and work poor tiles.

PS... free culture is AWESOME especially if you are NOT playing for a cultural victory... if you are playing for conquest, each city adds a LOT of unhappiness... there are multiple culture choices that improves that though. Also they improve production in your empire overall.... order and merchantilism are both awesome for conquest.
And since you are conquering you have culture problems...

on an epic game I just conquered france for the pyramids wonder they had... my legioneres road build time went down from 9 to 6 on regular tiles. also build times for workers went down... They were building faster, building MORE, cities were producing more due to more improvements... those are a LOT of turns saved, pyramids is pure sheer awesomeness in this game.

 

[ShaqFu]

I keep hearing references to "well, this ancient wonder will spawn a Great Person later," but I've never had this happen so far. In my cultural victory, I was gathering Artist points so fast that the goalposts kept moving for my Great Library Scientist - it never really budged past ~15%, because the requirement was increasing faster than the count. It seems like Wonder GPs are only really useful if you're not running off-type specialists, and thus not going for a specific victory. They points only really seem useful if they're on-type for your win (Great Library in a space race), or if you're building wonders during some downtime in a military game.

I'd say the single strongest wonder is Chichen Itza+Taj Mahal. I can't think of any reason (other than serendipity/poor planning) to not build them together, since the bonus is so obscenely large; they might as well be one super-wonder. Picking up more than 30 turns of a Golden Age (50 if you're Persia...) can give you such a huge gold/hammer boost that it'll win the game. Put your cities to gold for a while, watch your treasury explode, buy off city-states, win, or put your cities to production, build a bunch of Riflemen, find an opponent, win.

 

[Martin Alvito]

On Deity, the opportunity costs of early Wonders are just too high. While you are building great stone and marble monuments to your importance, the AI is Settler-spamming all of the good city sites and building an early army to rush you with. It does this at about 250% increased effectiveness as compared to Immortal due to the second Settler and additional production bonus. So you have to get out there and claim some dirt, as well as build a few units to deal with or deter a DoW.

On any level up to and including Immortal, the benefits of the early Wonders are too great to ignore.

This dichotomy is why there is such a difference of opinion in this thread.

 

[ChristofferC]

I'd say that Maccu Piccu is a good wonder if you have a big empire. I'm getting 30+ gold per turn from it at turn 190 in my current game...

 

[Seven05]

lighthouse = +1 f from coastal tile
seaport = +2 hammers from coastal tile

Close, the seaport adds +2 hammers on water tiles with a resource (fish, pearls, whales) not all coastal tiles (that would be nice).

Typically this means +4 hammers (two resources) +6 if you're lucky, +2 isn't worth it with the maintenance. Since this affect the tile yield it is then affected by any other buildings (factory, wind mill, etc). Those same tiles will sustain the pop that works them and bring in as much gold as a riverside trading post.

 

[ChronoReverse]

Wonders are maintenence free, and most of them apply to all your cities which makes them worthwhile to build.

I'm pretty sure they aren't. I'm currently playing a game with only two cities and correspondingly low everything (like gold). I've had to reduce my worker force because they seemed to contribute to the unit count for which there's a cost.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Well, after several playthroughs - my two cent on wonders:

* Stonehenge - it's enabled with Calendar and is on my immediate shopping list in every game. +8 culture effect diminishes over time but is huge in the beginning of the game allowing to quickly open new social policies and to grab more elite tiles farther away from the city. Must-have.

Agreed, a very strong wonder.

* Great Library - 1 free tech might not seem be worth long work, but there's not much better to do at that time - and that 1 free tech is typically Iron Working for me. Something to have before you go colonizing and build cities where there's no Iron.

I usually use the GL to make my jump from classic to medieval - imo it is a really nice wonder.

* Angkor Wat - 75% cheaper (in culture) acquiring of new tiles by cities - this allows for speeding up expansion of cities so is best built prior to a major colonization effort. Cities grow much faster grabbing more tiles from competition and opening new resources earlier. Gold can do it too so don't kill yourself for this one - but if you have a few free turns before Acoustics, do get this one.

A great wonder to expand your borders, esp. on small maps or with cultural victory in mind.

* Sistine Chapel - +33% culture is a gigantic bonus noticeable even if you rely on city states to provide you with it.

Nice to have, but not really great imo - unless you play for a cultural victory, ofc.

* Eiffel Tower - +8 Happiness - right when you start expanding and need it the most.

8 Happy is nice, but comes rather late. Still worth it's hammers imo, esp. since it doesn't have any upkeep cost.

* Cristo Redendor - -33% culture cost of adopting new policies. Awesome. Must-have.

A great wonder that comes late - almost too late. Crucial for a cultural vicory, but otherwise mediocre due to it's late arrival.

* Big Ben - -25% purchase cost in all cities allows to save a ton of cash.

I rarely have money to buy stuff in cities, but if you are running a gold-focused empire - yes, nice to have.

* Louvre - I typically dislike specialist-giving wonders but two artists isn't something I can easily come up with and two Landmarks boosts to culture in an otherwise useless tiles quickly pay for the wonder.

Indeed a nice wonder - and the artists can be used flexible depending on the current situation.

* Pentagon - cheaper upgrades are a bliss late in the game.

Nice for warmongers, but not too important for others.

* Apollo Program - space ships, nothing to add.

Well, duh.

* Sydney Opera - a free social policy that late in the game = awesome

Not as good as the Oracle (see below), but nice to have, yes.

* Manhattan Project - wanna nukes?

No, nukes are evil

* United Nations - for diplo victory.

Yeah, and nothing apart from that, unfortunatly...

* Great Lighthouse - +1 movement of ships. AI doesn't build any ships in this game and their movement isn't really useful. Worth taking on big archipelago maps, great in conjuction with English movement bonus so it has its uses. Only very limited.

I agree that this one is rather weak. Although it also gives +1 sight, iirc?

* Oracle - 1 free social policy. This early in the game you get new policies quite quickly still, so it's not as crucial as if it would come late - and AI likes this one quite a lot so losing a race for it is very common.

Great wonder (since you can use the free policy later), but agreed, quite some competition for it...

* Chichen Itza - 50% length of golden ages in the game - which are huge bonus nowadays and this wonder is very useful especially for smaller happier civilizations. I don't kill myself if I lose a race for it, but it's still worth at least a try.

Usefulness depends on gameplay and reaches from high to super-special-awesome. A player who can grab Taj-Mahal and goes for great people can get about 50-70 additional turns of golden age. Worth every hammer.

* Hanging Gardens - +3 happiness, +1 pop in all cities. Worth taking only if you mass-colonized very early in the game, something you shouldn't really do, but if you have a vast map with not many competitors and you went Egypt for example - this one will be cool for you.

Comes to early and the benefit is rather low. One of the weaker wonders, imo.

* Machu Picchu - +20% gold from trade routes. This kind of gold is typically under 10% of my total income so boost isn't really worth it, unless you have multiple cities very early.

Oddly enough, I sometimes get 30-40% of my income from trade routes. Nevertheless, it is nice to have, but not mendatory.

* Notre Dame - +5 Happiness. Why not, quite useful if you colonize too much too early or have trouble with happiness.

Basically one additional luxuary ressource - and iirc it also has above average culture?

* Pyramids - 50% faster worker production? Meh. I either steal workers from city states or just purchase handful of them I need and am willing to maintain.

Agreed, not worth the hammers. Yes, workers can become costly in large numbers, but it comes so early that you have way better investments...

* The Great Wall - 1 extra movement cost for enemy inside my territory is a joke, not a bonus, especially provided how horrid military AI is.

I have yet to get this one, but for a defensive player, esp. with a large country this could actually be nice.

* Colossus - +1 gold from water tiles worked by the city. Only if your first city looks like Rhodos or has a lot of whales, pearls and fishes - which it most likely doesn't.

Agreed, very weak. Water tiles are bad tiles anyway - and even if the bonus was empire wide, it would not be too good. Oh, and it goes OBSOLETE - as if it wasn't weak enough already...

* The Porcelain Tower - building a wonder to get a scientist is pointless at best while you can manufacture him the normal way and build something more useful instead. Get only if there's literally nothing else to take.

An odd view about this wonder, since this is basically a stronger Great Library - a GS can give you a golden age, build an academy or research a free tech. With some decent timing you can slingshot into the next era - not too bad if you ask me. Plus: It is rather cheap hammer-wise.

* Himeji Castle - +20% combat bonus in friendly territory. What for, combat Ai is horrid, you don't need a bonus to beat them in your own land where you can heal fast and aid yourself with bombardment from cities.

Disagree. It is great for defensive players - and it has above average culture benefits. A good wonder if you go for cultural victory.

* Kremlin - +50% defensive building power in cities. Except noone builds them - and noone ever defends back home rather taking the fight to enemy after initial wrestling.

As stated by someone above: If you build defensive buildings (and you will have to, if you persue a cultural victory or play higher difficulty), this one is awesome. Ever seen a strength 150 city that can fend of the GDR? I had one in my last game.

* Taj Mahal - Immediate Golden Age. Meh, I'd rather have it later in the game.

Very strong. The golden age is extra long and can benefit from any GA modifiers. Worth every hammer!

* Brandenburg Gate - free Great General at a price of a wonder is a bad deal. Go conquer stuff and you'll get one much cheaper.

It comes late and is not too awesome, but hey, it is a free GP and sometimes you will need it.

* Statue of Liberty - +1 production from specialists in all cities. Who needs production, money can buy all...

Who needs gold when he has hammers?
Seriously, if you go for a specialst economy, this one is great. It also has above average culture.

 

[delra]

Yea, Taj Mahal golden age has its own awesome rules that make it launch an extra long golden age outside of queue.

This is one I changed my opinion of since I posted - after a Persia game, another is Oracle. I still don't bother with Colossus, Pyramids and Great Wall - and typically don't kill myself to get all the GP wonders either - I build them when there's nothing better to build, while the "good" wonders I typically bee-line too so I can get Stonehenge, Great Library and Oracle early since that seems to be the best ancient trio.

 

[Eldaberry]

Is there the same limited per city of certain wonders? Like only 2 wonders can be built in this city.
It would be nice to have a list of ones that are global and city limiting if that is the case.

 

[taltamir]

the best wonders to BUILD are the ones who only give their bonus ONCE, to their BUILDER.
Ex: oracle gives 1 free culture... only to its original builder...

Most other wonders, you are better off building a big army to CONQUER said wonders from the AI... Last game I really wanted to pyramids... so I found out who had them and conquered them from the AI.

Speaking of, the hanging gardens say +1 to population in every city. I conquered them and I notice I still have 1 pop cities... nor has my population increased. I think they simply "spawn" 1 extra population at every city you own at the moment of their construction, not provide +1 free "population unit" at every city you own, forever.

*Stone-henge: 8 culture is a lot early on, but a pittance later on... the problem is, it is too damn expensive early on (and too risky that someone else will get it first)... I'd rather build up an army and conquer stuff around me instead... or build workers, make money, and pay off a cultural city state.
*Ankor-wat: This is GREAT for puppet cities, because you can NOT control their construction (to prioritize culture buildings) nor can you buy land for them.

Is there the same limited per city of certain wonders? Like only 2 wonders can be built in this city.
It would be nice to have a list of ones that are global and city limiting if that is the case.

you can build as many wonders as you want in one city.
Wonders also do NOT count as "structures", they are "wonders"... this means things like the workshop, which gives +20% to structure construction rate, does not apply to wonders...

I keep hearing references to "well, this ancient wonder will spawn a Great Person later," but I've never had this happen so far.

Certain wonders provide "+X to great scientist/engineer/artist points", also placing specialists in certain regular buildings (aka, museum, etc) also gives you such points. Gardens increase those points, etc...
A city that collects such points will show it up in its detailed view, showing X/Y with X being the points accumulated, and Y being the points needed to get the next one. When you see a notice "a great scientist/engineer/artist was born in your empire" its because X = Y in one of your cities and you spawned one. Wonders, being a reliable source of such points, eventually spawn great scientist/engineer/artist in your empire. I have had them do it in every game I played thus far.

Close, the seaport adds +2 hammers on water tiles with a resource (fish, pearls, whales) not all coastal tiles (that would be nice).

interesting, I was sure the description said +2 hammers in every water tile you work... I never verified it and just assumed it works... this makes it a lot less useful.