Wonders

[Disenfrancised]

Just for fun? You have a very useful sense of fun.

Stonehenge would be in the west. It's had replacements suggested, but I don't think there's a consensus.

Are there any good Carthaginian wonders? Stupid Romans burning all their cities and books....

It's pretty hard to find decent 'wonders' in Western Europe at this time, here's three:

The Waters of Sulis at Bath, well known Celtic holy site.

Lugus's Mountain Temple - the possible temple of top Gallic god Lugus whose cool ruins were found in the heights of the Massif Central, he was linked with the Roman god Mercury and found in lots of carvings.

The Pillars of Melqart - the oldest and most impressive Phoenican temple site in the west based in what is modern Cadiz, hannibal went a prayed there before heading to Rome, may have been the origin of the term 'pillars of hercules' and Melqart was also patron god of Carthage.

 

[The Q-Meister]

I'd like to see 1 Carthage wonder if possible but truth be told having the majority of wonders in "the East" is pretty historical as throughout the vast majority of the classical era the wealthiest civs were in the east...which is why the Greeks and Romans often invaded there to expand their empire.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Yes I remember the first time I played Rome: Total War. In this game the map of the game is divided into zones with each zone having a city, so I played Rome and conquered Carthage, Spain, and France, then I expanded through North Africa east towards Egypt, when I noticed that in Egypt there are 2 odd buildings that look very pretty, both I recognized, they were the Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse. It seems that whoever controls their territory gains some permanent bonuses, so I checked out other areas in the middle east and Greece and there were all the ancient wonders of the world, each giving a really cool bonus. This of course made me forget all about my European ambitions and I rushed to get these beauties for myself ASAP.

 

[agave]

Two other ideas to fill in Gaul / the west :

* Pont du Gard :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_du_Gard
This could be linked to a trade/movement bonus

* Arena of Nîmes or the Théâtre antique d'Orange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_of_Nîmes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Théâtre_antique_d'Orange
Maybe RFCGW's Global Theatre?

Ok, all were built by the Roman Empire, but i don't think the Gauls actually made anything noteworthy before they became Romans (if you discard all the "Stonehenges" in Britanny...).

 

[Disenfrancised]

Two other ideas to fill in Gaul / the west :

* Pont du Gard :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_du_Gard
This could be linked to a trade/movement bonus

* Arena of Nîmes or the Théâtre antique d'Orange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_of_Nîmes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Théâtre_antique_d'Orange
Maybe RFCGW's Global Theatre?

Ok, all were built by the Roman Empire, but i don't think the Gauls actually made anything noteworthy before they became Romans (if you discard all the "Stonehenges" in Britanny...).

Well the problem is the Romans tended to appropriate and build on any existing cool site so its hard to tell if the Celts had something there before...

 

[Cethegus]

Théâtre antique d'Orange could use the Theater of Dionysos graphics from the original Greek World.

And isn't it pretty given that most of the wonders are going to be owned by the eastern civilizations? That's history for you.

 

[SadoMacho]

Stones of Carnac (Brittany)
Fortess of Alesia (location konown according to celtic warriors)

 

[agave]

I'm no expert on the question, but i doubt the Celts had anything comparable. One reason being that they used wood and "torchis" (mix of clay and straw) for their buildings, materials that didn't really allow any major wonder-type constructions.
In France anyway, the only archeological findings of what's left of that period are just scarce village ruins buried in the ground with no hint of big realisations.

I agree it is just adding more Roman wonders, but at least it spreads them out geographically.

@SadoMacho : I didn't mention Carnac because it's just another Stonehenge, right?
As for Alesia, i like the idea, but hasn't it been a bit romanticized? I don't remember any famous archictectural properties about it. We seem to recall it just because it's the end of Vercingetorix...

 

[Arkaeyn]

Guess I just skimmed over the Temple of Artemis. Oops. Ah well, no harm done.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I've put in requests in the graphics forum for Yazilikaya, The Gate of All Nations, and the Great Arch of Ctesiphon. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171898&page=36

Those three I think are definitely in, as are Plato's Academy, the Great Sphinx, and Sebastos Harbor. So let's brainstorm some effects of the wonders and their places on the tech tree.

We seem to have a lot of options on wall wonders. The Walls of Jericho are another option, in addition to The Long Wall and Hadrian's Wall.

 

[Cethegus]

I did a little research on the Sphinx recently and found out that it is known as "The Father of Terror" in Arabic and the word itself is theorized to come from the Greek word Σφίγξ, which apparently derives from the verb σφίγγω (sphíng&#333 which means "to strangle". Normally I'd suggest transporting the Statue of Zeus' war weariness modifier bonus to it to convey this somehow, but given it making its appearance so early in the game, it has to have a lesser bonus; the Sphinx has been around for longer than the Pyramids, after all. Maybe a lesser war weariness increase would be enough (+25%/+50%) or something war-related anyway.

Will the Pyramids preserve their RFC bonus or be replaced with something else?

 

[Arkaeyn]

I'd generally prefer that wonders keep their RFC bonuses, unless a compelling argument can be made otherwise. War weariness seems fine, and I'm not sure that that provides such a big boost that it needs to be nerfed so significantly.

A few things going through the wonders...

The Total Realism mod includes a Gundashapur wonder. So if we want that, we have one available. I'm okay with it, just not super-excited. It's VERY late in our scope.

Plato's Academy does make sense, but it's already somewhat modeled in the mod by the Great Scientist building. Likewise, Gundashapur. Do we still want it as a specific wonder?

Total Realism also has a Ziggurat model, though it's not a GREAT Ziggurat model. ;-) They also have a Zoroastrian temple wonder: Adur Burzen-Mihr. It's got a beautiful model.

 

[JediClemente]

If we want a carthaginian wonder, it should be Carthage's harbor. But I don't know how to name it.

BTW Arkaeyn, can you make a comprehensive list of what has been decided and what there's to do? Or edit the first post.

 

[Arkaeyn]

The first list on the second post has a bunch of underlined wonders. Those are the definite new ones. You can feel free to be creative with what they do. For now, I'd suggest that whatever can be a straightforward replacement for an existing wonder should do that, as we know that those are play-balanced.

 

[felix86]

If we want a carthaginian wonder, it should be Carthage's harbor. But I don't know how to name it.

Isn't the Carthaginian UB already meant to be just that?