World Wonders balance

[phantomaxl1207]

+4 Culture (from Monument, Ampitheatre, Opera House, Museum), 50% per pop,+2 Culture and +4 Tourism from 2 Great Works and +3C and +4T from Museum's Theming. Only 32 Pop needed. And you'll be missing 4T and 3C that the Uffizi's GArtitst provides.

I never considered that Aesthetics' Finisher could affect nonTourism bonuses.

 

[Funak]

+4 Culture (from Monument, Ampitheatre, Opera House, Museum), 50% per pop,+2 Culture and +4 Tourism from 2 Great Works and +3C and +4T from Museum's Theming. Only 32 Pop needed. And you'll be missing 4T and 3C that the Uffizi's GArtitst provides.

I never considered that Aesthetics' Finisher could affect nonTourism bonuses.

First of all, I'm going to go ahead and say that I was mistaken, the extra theming bonus on the wonders was not affected by the Aesthetics finisher, so it was 20, not 25.


That being said I never counted the culture and tourism from the other two great works, because I assumed they could be used be dumped into a pagoda or so and provide the same effect. I dislike you counting the base culture from the buildings, it's not like we are building a new city from the ground here, we are adding pop to an existing building.

Now moving on to the Museum, I don't know about you, but in my last game I've pretty much always managed to fill up my museums anyways, so I'm not counting the spare great works into a museum as a replacement, here I'm counting the Uffizi as a place where you move great works into from your pagodas and whatnot after you've already filled out your museums (or before you get your museums).



By the way I think I've isolated where some of the confusion both involving this discussion and the one earlier about the Parthenon is coming from.
In case people did not know this (and it is a vanilla feature as far as I remember) the theming bonus you get from filling out a wonder/building actually provides culture as well as tourism.
Let's use our friend the Uffizi as an example, filling the Uffizi out with 3 great works of art from the same era gives you a theming-bonus of 5 culture, as well as a theming bonus of '+6', that '+6' does not actually mean +6 tourism per turn, it means +6 tourism per turn AND +6 culture per turn. Adding the Aesthetics finisher on top of that does not change the theming bonus of 5 culture, but it does increase the '+6' to '+12' which means +12 culture and tourism.
As a final grand total a fully filled Uffizi provides you with '+3 culture +6 tourism'(3 artists) +2 culture (base) +5 culture (theming) and '+12 culture +12 tourism'(theming). Total value is 22 culture and 18 tourism.

 

[Gazebo]

I didn't realize this was a thread. Anyways, having read through, I'm not sure I see any conclusions. That's either great, or terrible.

So...what's the shakeout here?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I didn't realize this was a thread. Anyways, having read through, I'm not sure I see any conclusions. That's either great, or terrible.

So...what's the shakeout here?

No that's terrible because that might mean Fuank is right about something

But, seriously, does the Aesthectics Finisher affect non-Tourism Theming bonuses? If it doesn't it should.

 

[Funak]

But, seriously, does the Aesthectics Finisher affect non-Tourism Theming bonuses? If it doesn't it should.

I already explained this one post ago...

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I didn't realize this was a thread. Anyways, having read through, I'm not sure I see any conclusions. That's either great, or terrible.

So...what's the shakeout here?

Well, from what I see most agree Parthenon is underwhelming/bad, with only Funak countering the statement (and perhaps phantomaxl1207 if he switched camp after that slot theming discussion?). That's what I get from glancing at what happened here since my last posts

Stonehenge, however, the opinions are hard to discern - about equal (or in favour of a buff if we consider "does what it should but could use +1/2 culture), so perhaps that small nudge in form of some CPT to it would suffice so it isn't alone in being a cultureless wonder?

 

[Kolaris]

Stonehenge guarantees you a Religion and lets you take the stronger scaling Pantheons like God-King. I think it's fine, but wouldn't be against 1 Culture-per-Turn.

 

[Funak]

Well, from what I see most agree Parthenon is underwhelming/bad, with only Funak countering the statement (and perhaps phantomaxl1207 if he switched camp after that slot theming discussion?). That's what I get from glancing at what happened here since my last posts

From my glancing, it seems like most people don't really care. I mean there have been 2 people who mentioned the parthenon aside from you and me, and one of them did not understand how theming works. That being said it was a majority on your side, the question is if it was enough of a majority to warrant a rework.

 

[Kolaris]

I have no opinion on Parthenon since I never go Progress. It certainly looks weak to me, as does Theming in general (regardless of Funak's number crunching), but obviously I have no practical experience with it.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

From my glancing, it seems like most people don't really care. I mean there have been 2 people who mentioned the parthenon aside from you and me, and one of them did not understand how theming works. That being said it was a majority on your side, the question is if it was enough of a majority to warrant a rework.

Well, not that many people posted here in the first place. The post numbers are inflated due to there having been 2 discussions here already.

The question indeed appears and the answerer will decide.

 

[Funak]

Well, not that many people posted here in the first place.

That was exactly my point

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

That was exactly my point

And I supported it in a deceitful way to make it my discovery truly am I the sneakiest git ever.

Nevertheless, from what I got from a few glances other threads of civs/whatever balance issues have the same problems. Their numbers are just as much inflated by discussions with not that many actual people posting there.

 

[Gazebo]

Quantity of opinions do not necessarily lead to quality or accuracy. Competency, numbers, and experience are far more valuable.

G

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I feel the Angkor Wat could be a better Progress Wonder. You can use the Gold from Progress Finisher to buy Tiles.

That could free the Parthenon to do something more meaningful.

 

[Funak]

Could one of you explain to me what makes the Parthenon so much worse than the Notre dame (which is considered a priority wonder) that it can be referred to as not 'meaningful'?

 

[Kolaris]

Notre Dame is not a priority for me.

The Wiki says the Parthenon gives -10% Culture Need in all cities. I don't remember seeing that in game, and it changes my opinion somewhat. Late game that's a significant amount of Happiness. A lot more than Notre Dame's 2.

 

[Funak]

The Wiki says the Parthenon gives -10% Culture Need in all cities. I don't remember seeing that in game, and it changes my opinion somewhat. Late game that's a significant amount of Happiness. A lot more than Notre Dame's 2.

The boredom reduction is there. Not exactly a huge reduction, but boredom is the most dangerous type of unhappiness.

 

[JungleBucks]

I feel the Angkor Wat could be a better Progress Wonder. You can use the Gold from Progress Finisher to buy Tiles.

That could free the Parthenon to do something more meaningful.

Actually, now that you mention it. I feel the Angkor Wat is a pretty mehish wonder. Unless I'm playing as someone like Washington, I never go for that wonder because superior wonders such as the Oracle are in direct competition in terms of accessibility.

Maybe I'm just underrating the Wat though. It's expansion qualities are decent, and the Engineer slot is nice, but it's not something that makes me want to go out and grab it, especially since by this point there isn't nearly the priority to buy tiles as there is when the game starts.

Maybe if there were a bonus from gaining land, or (since it IS a temple after all) it provides additional faith.

 

[Kolaris]

In fact I would say the only thing keeping Angkor Wat from being a top tier wonder is the competition with Oracle. The faster natural border growth has a lot of synergy with Tradition, Honor, Piety, and Autocracy.

 

[Gokudo01]

The boredom reduction is there. Not exactly a huge reduction, but boredom is the most dangerous type of unhappiness.

boredom increases the tourism output of other nation over you, right ?