amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
For what? Defending South VietNam from a communist invasion? Oh yeah, that's really terrorism. What about Viet Cong agents that would sneak over to the South and act as spies?
What were they, liberators?
World's Worst Terrorists?
- Thread starter amadeus
- Start date
For what? Defending South VietNam from a communist invasion? Oh yeah, that's really terrorism. What about Viet Cong agents that would sneak over to the South and act as spies?
What were they, liberators?
Whiskey Priest
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2001
- Messages
- 297
If we are talking about the effectivness of a partisan organization(I will use this term because it is not as "loaded" as terrorist) it has to be the IRA. In 1916-1922 they confronted and beat the worlds largest empire in their own backyard. Actually I don't think they were called the IRA back then.
Wow just edited this, talk about terrible grammer.
Wow just edited this, talk about terrible grammer.
animepornstar
Deity
when usa bomb a medical factory in sudan with cruise missils and destroy half of sudan´s medicine supplies a couple of years ago, was that terrorism?
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
Yes. Yes it was.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Uh, no, it wasn't.
What Bill Clinton did in Sudan was completely without merit. It was an ignorant and shallow ploy to try to make Americans forget about Clinton's perverted affair.
It was Clintonism. Not terrorism.
animepornstar
Deity
yes, that´s correct
RedWolf
Deity
I once said that to a teacher of mine while we were having a debate about the merits of war. He laughed at me and said "Shawn there was no freedom in Asia to protect"
I argued with him at the time but later realized how true his argument was. Our problem as a western democracy is that we take our ideals and force them onto others to justify our own actions.
Sure the US was defending th South from Communism... but did the people WANT to be protected from that communist regime? Communism really is just a word. Dictatorships come in all different economic flavours. Make no mistake.. the government of South Vietnam was a dictatorship every bit as brutal as that in the North and the US fought to PROTECT that regime - simply because it claimed to support American interests.
Did the farmers in the country side really care which one of the two regimes ruled their country? Many didn't.
If the people of South Vietnam really cared about their "freedom" as much as the US government claimed then the Viet Cong wouldn't have had such popular support throughtout the nation. The men and teenaged boys of entire villages wouldn't have dissapeared by night to fight "the American imperialists". And the South Vietnamese military and political structure wouldn't have been so rife with corruption and greed.
But what people universally want is safety... for themselves and their families. although it was in fact accidental a large number of South Vietnamese civilians were killed by American cluster bombs and napalm... This just further alienated the people of the country.
You can claim all you want that you're trying to "help" a people but while bombs rain down on their heads it's very difficult for them to believe it. Who do you choose then to rule your country? A brutal dictatorship to the North? Or a brutal dictatorship that you've already been abused by that is co-operating with an outside invader that regularly drops bombs on your villages and people?
I once heard that the South Vietnamese had a saying:
"The Viet Cong come and steal your food and beat you up. The Americans come and steal your food, beat you up and burn your village"
I'm not attacking American Vietnam Vets... Their courage and valour is legendary... Many of them even believed in their cause - preserving the "freedom" of South Vietnam. However many people of the time were tricked through American propoganda and rhethoric into supporting a war when in reality the government cared not at ALL for anybody's freedom. They were looking out for number one - all the while the Defense contractors got filthy stinking rich as the US fed an entire generation into the meat grinder of a pointless stupid war.
The politicians were trying to send a message to the rest of the world that America would not allow the "evil disease of communism" to spread across the world (all the while supporting governments every bit as bad - of course they were evil CAPITALIST regimes instead) and the Military Establishment got their war - Wars justify their existence after all and allow them to do that which they train for - this is why military people automatically see armed conflict as the quickest easiest solution to every problem.
In the end the people of South Vietnam were the losers... as well as the 58,000 dead American teenagers. America itself was a loser as well - that unpopular war tore the people of that country apart. It would take years for those wounds to heal.
This is why it bothers me so much to hear Bush and his government talk about the "evil Taliban regime"... Please don't claim that you're doing this for the good of the Afghan people
because you AREN'T. Ask them what THEY think of the bombing? If they were really willing to die to topple the Taliban then they would have done so by now - They know one thing though... In their country war is an absolute... and replacing the Taliban with some other warlord/dictator will NOT simply make all of their problems go away.. so in the meantime they choose life - however pitifull that may seem to us...
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
American casualties: 5,009
Afghan casualties: 4
...
With those statistics, I really don't give a damn about what the Afghans think about the bombing.
Afghan casualties: 4
...
With those statistics, I really don't give a damn about what the Afghans think about the bombing.
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
"American casualties: 5,009
Afghan casualties: 4 "
I'll think your find the American casualty figures are actually closer to 3000, but the media in the US choose to ignore this. I'm not trying to justify it or anything, it is just an example of the USA's media using terrorism as a propaganda tool.
As for Vietnam, well the USA was supporting a fascist dictatorship as RedWolf has pointed out, that monk didn't burn himself for nothing ya know!
And yeah, after thinking about it i have to say it was Clintonism that led to the sudan thing
I'm not to sure wether you would of heard about this much in the USA at current but the Real IRA (a splinter group from the IRA) attempted to blow up a load of innocent people on saturday night, fortunatly it failed but next time you see an Irish American collecting donations for Sinn Fein think back to September the 11th and the reasons this current war is being fought, these people who planted the bomb on saturday are just as bad as Osama yet i see no action being taken against them.
Afghan casualties: 4 "
I'll think your find the American casualty figures are actually closer to 3000, but the media in the US choose to ignore this. I'm not trying to justify it or anything, it is just an example of the USA's media using terrorism as a propaganda tool.
As for Vietnam, well the USA was supporting a fascist dictatorship as RedWolf has pointed out, that monk didn't burn himself for nothing ya know!
And yeah, after thinking about it i have to say it was Clintonism that led to the sudan thing
I'm not to sure wether you would of heard about this much in the USA at current but the Real IRA (a splinter group from the IRA) attempted to blow up a load of innocent people on saturday night, fortunatly it failed but next time you see an Irish American collecting donations for Sinn Fein think back to September the 11th and the reasons this current war is being fought, these people who planted the bomb on saturday are just as bad as Osama yet i see no action being taken against them.
The real IRA.
Either a true splinter group who believe the IRA are not severe enough or a conveniant excuse for the IRA to continue bombing but under a different name.
I tend to believe the second reason more. It would be hard for the government to justify actually bombing Ireland and they have tried fighting them in moderation before as well and look how successful its been.
Either a true splinter group who believe the IRA are not severe enough or a conveniant excuse for the IRA to continue bombing but under a different name.
I tend to believe the second reason more. It would be hard for the government to justify actually bombing Ireland and they have tried fighting them in moderation before as well and look how successful its been.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
3,000? Where did that number come from? Those planes didn't crash into a junior high school in some rural town in Arkansas. You're talking about the World Trade Center, probably the two most populous buildings (in terms of users, visitors) that ever stood in New York.
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
I recall reading in a couple of newspapers and on a news website (can't remember which) that the original figures where over-estimated, and that it was starting to look like it was only 3000 rather than 5000 odd. (this might just be a bunch of bull but i think it is pretty realiable) You have to remember that in the chaos of what had happened there was no real way to tell and it was mostly estimates.
But hey, if it's true that's a good thing!
But hey, if it's true that's a good thing!
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
Forget it RMShape, he doesnt know what he's talking about. Theres at least 5000 comfirmed missing from families and friends of people who worked at WTC, Pentagon and the four airliners.
To Red Wolf - Were doing it to kill a rouge band of mass-murderers before they kill thousands more. Dont get sidetracked.
Al-Quaida is without question, or rather WAS the most effective terror organization in the world at present, to answer the origional question. They wont be around much longer though...
I wont bother to answer "trolls" about the US and VietNam. Thats stipid, and pointless.
And in response to Mikoyan, if I was alive in the 1700s, I would be George Washington!
To Red Wolf - Were doing it to kill a rouge band of mass-murderers before they kill thousands more. Dont get sidetracked.
Al-Quaida is without question, or rather WAS the most effective terror organization in the world at present, to answer the origional question. They wont be around much longer though...
I wont bother to answer "trolls" about the US and VietNam. Thats stipid, and pointless.
And in response to Mikoyan, if I was alive in the 1700s, I would be George Washington!
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
"The real IRA.
Either a true splinter group who believe the IRA are not severe enough or a conveniant excuse for the IRA to continue bombing but under a different name.
I tend to believe the second reason more. It would be hard for the government to justify actually bombing Ireland and they have tried fighting them in moderation before as well and look how successful its been."
Some how, I don't think so
.
The British government would have no purpose in bombing Ireland to get at any Irish Republican factions, as there are no targets, and neither are there any discernable cross border bases. They could not defeat the IRA in 1916-21, nor from the 1970s to the present day, and bombing was not countenanced then, so it will not be now.
I hate to spoil the illusions of some who put the Real IRA dogs along with the rest of the Republican movement, but they ARE different entities, and there has been some clandestine blood shedding about this issue. Can't say much, but I were Real IRA, I'd prefer to be caught by the authorities, or even victims families than the Provo's. They are a splinter group, a very small one, but containing very hardcore elements, ie a couple of ASUs and an ex PIRA Quartermaster.
In turn, Sinn Fein is further disconnected from the Real IRA by virtue of it being a legitimate political body, so labelling it as the Real IRA is false and silly.
In terms of action not being taken against them, there are big investigations, and there have been some arrests of key members by British, Irish and US authorities. They are a die hard element, but will die soon, as such.
The current disarmament of the Republican forces, without similar action by the Loyalist paramilitaries, mind you, is a major step in the peace process, and a good one. Too many died and suffered in the Troubles, Proddy and Taig. It is a complicated issue, and not one that is easily simplified. The current impasse is occuring because of the machinations of Paisley and his mob against Trimble. Peace is gradually popping its head over the horizon.
Either a true splinter group who believe the IRA are not severe enough or a conveniant excuse for the IRA to continue bombing but under a different name.
I tend to believe the second reason more. It would be hard for the government to justify actually bombing Ireland and they have tried fighting them in moderation before as well and look how successful its been."
Some how, I don't think so
.The British government would have no purpose in bombing Ireland to get at any Irish Republican factions, as there are no targets, and neither are there any discernable cross border bases. They could not defeat the IRA in 1916-21, nor from the 1970s to the present day, and bombing was not countenanced then, so it will not be now.
I hate to spoil the illusions of some who put the Real IRA dogs along with the rest of the Republican movement, but they ARE different entities, and there has been some clandestine blood shedding about this issue. Can't say much, but I were Real IRA, I'd prefer to be caught by the authorities, or even victims families than the Provo's. They are a splinter group, a very small one, but containing very hardcore elements, ie a couple of ASUs and an ex PIRA Quartermaster.
In turn, Sinn Fein is further disconnected from the Real IRA by virtue of it being a legitimate political body, so labelling it as the Real IRA is false and silly.
In terms of action not being taken against them, there are big investigations, and there have been some arrests of key members by British, Irish and US authorities. They are a die hard element, but will die soon, as such.
The current disarmament of the Republican forces, without similar action by the Loyalist paramilitaries, mind you, is a major step in the peace process, and a good one. Too many died and suffered in the Troubles, Proddy and Taig. It is a complicated issue, and not one that is easily simplified. The current impasse is occuring because of the machinations of Paisley and his mob against Trimble. Peace is gradually popping its head over the horizon.
RedWolf
Deity
First off... I am not "trolling" with my Vietnam war comment. Every statement i made was the truth and I'm sorry if some Americans have been so brainwashed that it offends them - I personally felt that i was making an intelligent commentary on American policy in Southest Asia at the time. if you don't like it tough.
As for the death count of the World Trade Center bombing. I too have been hearng reports in OUR media (ie: not US dominated propoganda) that the death counts may well have been below the 5000 that was ealier quoted. This doesn't make the tradgedy any less horrible... I'm just telling you what i have been hearing.
The problem right now is that truth is hard to come by. People are SO angry that they are willing to believe every lie that our government feeds us. In our ****ry people are starting to once again think for themselves... and question our government - demand facts and truth. We are slowly but surely coming out of our daze and emerging from our "Sheep state". People are FINALLY questioning the validity of "anti-terrorist legislation" that will FOREVER take away our constitutional rights (our government wants NO sunset clause so these laws will NEVER go away once passed)
The government is telling people exactly what they want us to hear. Never ever forget that. Their job right now is to keep the people "onside" of this conflict. Thats they way it worked 50 years ago and thats the way it still works today. Remember all the cheesy war propoganda we see in old WWII documentaries? Well they're doing the same thing today - only it's more subtle and far more intelligent - the population overall is more aware of the world around them than ever before.
The media in this case is right on side with the government. it is SUICIDE right now for a news organization to show either Bush or the war in a bad light... Remember what happened to the guy on Politically Incorrect? (for expressing a controversial opinion - which is his JOB)
CNN is the worst. Remember, wars are there bread and butter. They have a vested interest in supporting our government and showing the war in a positive light.
Believe what you want but never ever forget that the media is and will always be biased. PEOPLE are biased. Thats just how it works. Watch a variety of media sources and gather facts, form your own opinions, and most of all QUESTION YOUR GOVERMENT.
Very few people believe that their politicians are always completely honest on a day to basis... We all believe that they manipulate us through lies and half truths... well remember.. JUST BECAUSE THIS IS A WAR IT DOESN'T MEAN THINGS HAVE ChANGED
THEY STILL DO IT!
As for the body count:
US: 5000
Afghans: 4
I personally don't by any stretch believe that only 4 innocent Afghans have been killed. Not by ANY means.
Even if it IS true is this all about body counts? Apparently it IS because Air Strikes are NOT going to stop Bin Ladin.. all they're doing is killing people (many of them innocent) and inciting more hatred against the west. if this is our only goal then we may as well just drop a big bomb on Kabul... kill 5000 of THEIR civilians and call it even (we do after all know that: 1 wrong + 1 wrong = 1 right)
As for the death count of the World Trade Center bombing. I too have been hearng reports in OUR media (ie: not US dominated propoganda) that the death counts may well have been below the 5000 that was ealier quoted. This doesn't make the tradgedy any less horrible... I'm just telling you what i have been hearing.
The problem right now is that truth is hard to come by. People are SO angry that they are willing to believe every lie that our government feeds us. In our ****ry people are starting to once again think for themselves... and question our government - demand facts and truth. We are slowly but surely coming out of our daze and emerging from our "Sheep state". People are FINALLY questioning the validity of "anti-terrorist legislation" that will FOREVER take away our constitutional rights (our government wants NO sunset clause so these laws will NEVER go away once passed)
The government is telling people exactly what they want us to hear. Never ever forget that. Their job right now is to keep the people "onside" of this conflict. Thats they way it worked 50 years ago and thats the way it still works today. Remember all the cheesy war propoganda we see in old WWII documentaries? Well they're doing the same thing today - only it's more subtle and far more intelligent - the population overall is more aware of the world around them than ever before.
The media in this case is right on side with the government. it is SUICIDE right now for a news organization to show either Bush or the war in a bad light... Remember what happened to the guy on Politically Incorrect? (for expressing a controversial opinion - which is his JOB)
CNN is the worst. Remember, wars are there bread and butter. They have a vested interest in supporting our government and showing the war in a positive light.
Believe what you want but never ever forget that the media is and will always be biased. PEOPLE are biased. Thats just how it works. Watch a variety of media sources and gather facts, form your own opinions, and most of all QUESTION YOUR GOVERMENT.
Very few people believe that their politicians are always completely honest on a day to basis... We all believe that they manipulate us through lies and half truths... well remember.. JUST BECAUSE THIS IS A WAR IT DOESN'T MEAN THINGS HAVE ChANGED
THEY STILL DO IT!
As for the body count:
US: 5000
Afghans: 4
I personally don't by any stretch believe that only 4 innocent Afghans have been killed. Not by ANY means.
Even if it IS true is this all about body counts? Apparently it IS because Air Strikes are NOT going to stop Bin Ladin.. all they're doing is killing people (many of them innocent) and inciting more hatred against the west. if this is our only goal then we may as well just drop a big bomb on Kabul... kill 5000 of THEIR civilians and call it even (we do after all know that: 1 wrong + 1 wrong = 1 right)
Please cut the crap!
You know how to **** all over the world about peaceful solutions, but when it comes to your own home then those solutions are forgotten. Just brutal retaliation.
How can a nation that was built on butchery of indian natives justify itself?
You don't care about the world, you care only for your interests.
You invaded Kuwait because you like Kuwaitians, or their oil rigs.
You wanted to help South Vietnam because you wanted it to become democratic country, or stop spreading the communism?
A-Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many women and children and you still had to run Tokyo process. Greatest hypocrisy of all time.
Or bombing of Dresden maybe?
Where were then peaceful solutions?
And now i have to watch "Pearl Harbour" or "U-571 (or whatever)", "Patriot" or other cases of reinventing history.
You've never asked yourselves - WHY? Why the taliban chose USA?
Do so! Maybe it will clear the vision a bit.
You know how to **** all over the world about peaceful solutions, but when it comes to your own home then those solutions are forgotten. Just brutal retaliation.
How can a nation that was built on butchery of indian natives justify itself?
You don't care about the world, you care only for your interests.
You invaded Kuwait because you like Kuwaitians, or their oil rigs.
You wanted to help South Vietnam because you wanted it to become democratic country, or stop spreading the communism?
A-Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many women and children and you still had to run Tokyo process. Greatest hypocrisy of all time.
Or bombing of Dresden maybe?
Where were then peaceful solutions?
And now i have to watch "Pearl Harbour" or "U-571 (or whatever)", "Patriot" or other cases of reinventing history.
You've never asked yourselves - WHY? Why the taliban chose USA?
Do so! Maybe it will clear the vision a bit.
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
Soyuz - Your entitled to your opinion, one-sided as it may be.
History is more complex than you make it out to be. Would you have prefered letting the NVA just take the South, and abandoning them? Or allowing the Nazis and Japanese Imperial Army to run rampant over Europe and Asia? Letting Saddam Hussein take over Saudi Arabia and control the whole middle-east?
I cant argue with the treatment of Native Americans, its the only thing you posted that is an American tragedy. But it was 125 years ago, and America stands for different things now.
Come up with something a little better next time.
And choosing the US as a target for murder is obvious. We dont give in to tyranny, like the kind used by Al-Quaida, the Taliban and other groups/governments that are evil. Without the US they could spread their evil at will. But they cant, and they wont. Not anymore.
They picked the wrong people to kill.
History is more complex than you make it out to be. Would you have prefered letting the NVA just take the South, and abandoning them? Or allowing the Nazis and Japanese Imperial Army to run rampant over Europe and Asia? Letting Saddam Hussein take over Saudi Arabia and control the whole middle-east?
I cant argue with the treatment of Native Americans, its the only thing you posted that is an American tragedy. But it was 125 years ago, and America stands for different things now.
Come up with something a little better next time.
And choosing the US as a target for murder is obvious. We dont give in to tyranny, like the kind used by Al-Quaida, the Taliban and other groups/governments that are evil. Without the US they could spread their evil at will. But they cant, and they wont. Not anymore.
They picked the wrong people to kill.
USA is a terrorist?
Do you realize how ****ing stupid you sound when you say that!
I'm gonna go into politics and not give any help to anyone except for britain and let all of the ****ty 3rd world countries starve to death.
I'll show you a terrorist
Do you realize how ****ing stupid you sound when you say that!
I'm gonna go into politics and not give any help to anyone except for britain and let all of the ****ty 3rd world countries starve to death.
I'll show you a terrorist
I think we liked to kuwaitis.
Of course we were there to stop communism. thats a dumb ass question.
You know what i don't really care what the death toll is in Afghanistan as long as we get the job done! I do believe Canada, Britain and Austrailia are helping us. So ridicule your own countries.
Without the US Europe would be a pretty ****ty place due to the destruction that WW2 caused.
So how about you give us some damn respect.
Of course we were there to stop communism. thats a dumb ass question.
You know what i don't really care what the death toll is in Afghanistan as long as we get the job done! I do believe Canada, Britain and Austrailia are helping us. So ridicule your own countries.
Without the US Europe would be a pretty ****ty place due to the destruction that WW2 caused.
So how about you give us some damn respect.
