Worst Dictators Ever?

[lz14]

Originally posted by h4ppy
You lose, maybe you could have convinced people if you didn't throw a tantrum but you lose.

It's actually nice for you to say that. I used to think the same. But then I realised it's no avail. I aren't gonna win, I can't fight off the whole properganda machine, Kids will always "know more" about Castro than Pinochet, about Mao than Jiang. I'm just saying it for the sake of saying it, let people know the other side of the story exists.

Originally posted by privatehudson
Really? How intruiging, for someone who has never met me, you know an awful lot about my attitude towards hitler. Perhaps you should look up a thread in this very forum on appeasement. You'd be suprised just how many people here would not give him Czechoslovakia actually.

I didn't claim to know what your stance is. I said "some people". "how many people here"'s opinion is not important anyway, what's important is what happened and what's going to happen. With the mentality that Hitler is better than Stalin, or even Pol Pot, history will repeat itself, we already have Bin Laden and Saddam running around who thought to be "better". (OK Saddam is not running any more)

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
3) You call "us westerners" idiotic, but do you tell us why? Nope.

I never said that. I always said "some people". And I said westerners don't get a chance to know Jiang. Don't mix things up.

 

[lz14]

Originally posted by privatehudson

I do though have to admire your debating skills, you declare Jiang worse than Mao and then close the case before saying why. Not only do you have the incredible nerve to do so, you also claim "western people will never know". Well I'm guessing you know, so please, enlighten us

Assuming of course that your skill in discussions such as this stretches to beyond just criticising other's opinions without actually saying why that is...

I'm not the one with the nerve. I wasn't taking actions, it was merely an re-action. Had nobody said nothing, I won't stand out and claim Mao is better.

But what have we got. Stalin kills 60 million. wow. Russia also lost 35 million in the war with a total of 95 million. What's the population of USSR ? 100 million+ ? How did they keep the then world's largest army and have enough people left to produce the second strongest millitary ?

And Mao resposible for 30 million dead in the civil war. wow. How many died in the 8 year Japanese war ? So three years of civil war had more death.

And some other things like "Mao was resposible for many death and ruined many people's lives." Can I say "Bush was resposible for many deaths and ruined many people's lives" ? Is there a point of saying such a line ?

It was merely a name typing and dubious thread.

 

[lz14]

I can list Jiang's wrong doings seven days a week and twice on weekends.

For starters, Jiang dynamitted the dam on the yellow river trying to stop the Japanese. He managed to drown a couple of thousands along with their equipments, but it left the whole eastern areas flooded. There were millions people left homeless. A figure that claimed to be "un-calculatable". I don't know if it's so or they are busy calculating Mao's numbers.

The point is it wasn't even a stradegic plan. It was just a panic move. They did it because they could. Their role is merely an extension of the landlords, and common people just don't exist in their minds.

 

[Amenhotep7]

For starters, Jiang dynamitted the dam on the yellow river trying to stop the Japanese. He managed to drown a couple of thousands along with their equipments, but it left the whole eastern areas flooded. There were millions people left homeless. A figure that claimed to be "un-calculatable". I don't know if it's so or they are busy calculating Mao's numbers.

Yes, but there is a difference.

1) He only did that because he could do nothing else.

2) He isn't responsible for those deaths, as it was a way to try and protect China, and keep the Japanese out. Seeing as how the Japanese started the war, seeing as how Mao incited the revolution, Jiang Kai-Shek was merely trying to protect his country to the best of is ability. Something that ANY person worthy of ruling should see to.

 

[pstanhag]

How can Ho Chi Minh be responsible for deaths after the war when he wasn't even alive. And what deaths are you talking about. The only killing of civilians by the North/VC was a few thousand in Hue. Vietnam put a stop to Pol Pot also, while the US was trying to keep him in power to appease China

 

[Kafka2]

Originally posted by lz14


Should I bother ?

The story of Lopez was listed directly above. Does that change some people's mind ? Nope.

He is somehow still better than Castro. Fiedel is worse than "beat his own sisters and mother up", Cuba is worse than "six year olds attacking enemy artillery placements with clods of earth". Some of you are just totally blind.

I must correct you on a point there. Lopez didn't just beat his family up- with the exception of his wife and mother he tortured and killed them all.

 

[Kafka2]

Originally posted by luiz


That's right, Castro is MUCH worse then Pinochet. Fidel alone killed more then the SUM of ALL latin-american military dictatorships.

I think you should back that figure up. Personally I would be amazed if his bodycount would get him in the top 3 position in Paraguay alone.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by lz14


Don't think so.
How sure ? Just because they aren't communists.
You can use strong words. But with ZERO facts to back'em up, no one is going to respect your selections.

Hitler was not a commie and yet was on my list, just like Lopez.

Coincidence or not, communism produced some of the worst leaders the world has ever seen.

About Castro: check Amnesty International and compare the number of his victims to the victims of Pinochet.
How can you support a dictator that stays in power for 5 decades?
How can you suppor a dictator that makes his brother becomes his successor(and thus creating a monarchy)?
How can you support a dictator that have people executed after 2 hour trials???????????
A dictator that have people arrested for "crime of opinion"?????

And if you really believe Mao didn't commit genocide, I'm done discussing with you, because your ignorance is beyond redemption.(Tip: ask a chinese)

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by Kafka2


I think you should back that figure up. Personally I would be amazed if his bodycount would get him in the top 3 position in Paraguay alone.

Solano Lopez doesn't count on my list.
By latin american military dictator I meant the ones from 60's to the 80's, sorry for the confusion.
In Brazil when we say military dictatorships it's automatically assumed as the ones of the late XX century, but I guess foreigners can get a bit confused.
Solano Lopez killed more then Castro, that's correct.

 

[lz14]

Originally posted by luiz


That's right, Castro is MUCH worse then Pinochet. Fidel alone killed more then the SUM of ALL latin-american military dictatorships.

Pinochet is evil, but compared to Castro, he's a lamb. Hell, most serial killers are angels when compared to the megalomaniac, demented, psychotic, murderer, brutal tyrannic monarch that is fidel Castro.

I was responding to this post.

You highlighted the words yourself. MUCH worse than Pinochet, killed more than the SUM of ALL. Most serial killers are angels compared to Castro.

That's just gross exaggeration.

And don't take any offence, I have nothing against you. But your attempt to redeme yourself by saying "in Brazil it's only 60's -80's" etc is quite lame.

Originally posted by luiz

Hitler was not a commie and yet was on my list, just like Lopez.

Coincidence or not, communism produced some of the worst leaders the world has ever seen.

About Castro: check Amnesty International and compare the number of his victims to the victims of Pinochet.
How can you support a dictator that stays in power for 5 decades?
How can you suppor a dictator that makes his brother becomes his successor(and thus creating a monarchy)?
How can you support a dictator that have people executed after 2 hour trials???????????
A dictator that have people arrested for "crime of opinion"?????

I DIDN'T say you ONLY put commies in the list. I was doubting that you tolerate those who are not commies.

I DIDN'T say I support Castro. So stop asking me 'how can you support' 'how can you support'.

BUT I would be glad to see more details on the 'crime of opinion' and '2 hour trial'. The mere facts of those don't mean what you want them to mean. The person I talked about, Mr Jiang, handed power to his son in Taiwan. You probably will never call that a monarchy.

Originally posted by luiz

And if you really believe Mao didn't commit genocide, I'm done discussing with you, because your ignorance is beyond redemption.(Tip: ask a chinese)

Now I DID imply Mao didn't commit genocide.

But I AM Chinese. Me and my familes had our own experience and I asked a lot of other Chinese as well. You can say Mao was stupid, ignorant, or even evil, it's all open to debate. But to tell our next generation Mao committed genocide is just wrong.

 

[lz14]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7

Amenhotep7. I'm sure you are a nice person and a great learner. Again I don't have have anything against you. But you don't know much about the issue do you ? Honestly. You know it, I know it, let's just drop it.

 

[Amenhotep7]

No, no grudges at all, lz14. I just get like that when I'm in a debate.

From all of the things I know, Mao DID commit genocide, or something very much like it.

So in order to keep this debate going, why don't you list all of the things Jiang did, and I'll list all of the things Mao did, and we'll see if any of those have actual reasons, or if they're just driven by megalomania.

 

[Tathlum]

Right lz14 if you've calmed down can I please ask you to actually educate us as to what he did...Please.
Yeah I admit it I don't know...
If you're just gonna respond like you did last time I asked, DON'T BOTHER I'll look it up. Just figured that since you advertised the fact that we don't know the real story, you might like to share the realy story. I really don't know what you expect. You accuse westerners of Propaganda yet when we show an interest you insult us.
For the sake of "educating an ignorant Westener" or however you want to label me, will you please share what you know and what I don't about Jiang.
I am willing to change my opinion of him if you show me some facts but not if you just sit there and insult me.
Honestly, my whole point for discussing history on this forum to to learn facts and opinions that I have no access to at home.

Not knowing something makes me Human not a propaganda feuled bigot...

 

[Kafka2]

Originally posted by luiz


Solano Lopez doesn't count on my list.
By latin american military dictator I meant the ones from 60's to the 80's, sorry for the confusion.
In Brazil when we say military dictatorships it's automatically assumed as the ones of the late XX century, but I guess foreigners can get a bit confused.
Solano Lopez killed more then Castro, that's correct.

OK- by restricting your timescale to that 30 year window you're avoiding the Chacos War and the Paraguayan Civil War of 1947-48. However you still get most of the Stronato, and I would be surprised if Castro achieved more in the way of atrocities than Stroessner managed.

 

[jack merchant]

Some data in case people want to discuss the case of Castro with some actual facts in hand. Also be sure to read the introduction and the notes to it.

Also lots of great (but sad) data on other conflicts and dictators.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by lz14

I was responding to this post.

You highlighted the words yourself. MUCH worse than Pinochet, killed more than the SUM of ALL. Most serial killers are angels compared to Castro.

That's just gross exaggeration.

And don't take any offence, I have nothing against you. But your attempt to redeme yourself by saying "in Brazil it's only 60's -80's" etc is quite lame.

Yes, sum of all military dictators.
As I correctly said, when we say military dicators in Brazil, we are only refering to the right-wing dictatorships that begun in the 60's. It's not a lame excuse, it's a fact. Ask another brazilian, send a PM to Fredlc. It's true.

Originally posted by lz14

BUT I would be glad to see more details on the 'crime of opinion' and '2 hour trial'. The mere facts of those don't mean what you want them to mean. The person I talked about, Mr Jiang, handed power to his son in Taiwan. You probably will never call that a monarchy.

Jailing for crime of opinion is admittedly a practice in Cuba. Castro admitts to have at least 8,000 political prisioners, and he also admitts that this number was close to 50,000 in the months following the revolution. Amnesty International numbers are much higher.

Originally posted by lz14

Now I DID imply Mao didn't commit genocide.

But I AM Chinese. Me and my familes had our own experience and I asked a lot of other Chinese as well. You can say Mao was stupid, ignorant, or even evil, it's all open to debate. But to tell our next generation Mao committed genocide is just wrong.

Mao was neither stupid or ignorant, he was simply evil.
And he did commit genocide, that's a fact.

Here's a very interesting link, about major XXth century genocides.
The number of deaths credit to the Chinese Communist Govt are amazing 35,200,000

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/TCEH/Slouch_power4.html

Ah, and link is not from a dubious right-wing organization, it's from Berkeley.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by Kafka2


OK- by restricting your timescale to that 30 year window you're avoiding the Chacos War and the Paraguayan Civil War of 1947-48. However you still get most of the Stronato, and I would be surprised if Castro achieved more in the way of atrocities than Stroessner managed.

In absolute numbers, Stroessner didn't kill "that much". Mainly because the paraguayan population is very small.

 

[luiz]

As for the comparisson between Pinochet and Castro:
From Jack's site:

-Number of victims of the chilean dictatorship: 3,000-10,000
-Number of victims of the cuban regime UNTILL 1967(!!): 15,000

So yes, Castro is much worse then Pinochet.

 

[Amenhotep7]

That link says Chiang commited genocide, but it doesn't elaborate at all.

 

[luiz]

I believe there is little doubt that Nationalist China commited severall crimes. But they pale in comparisson with the ones commited by Communist China, that's all.