Worst ennemy at friendly ?

[JujuLautre]

Well, first thing: could someone load the save that I added with this post to tell me if they have the same problem ?

The problem is that Wang Kon is friendly with Fred, and despite that Fred is Wang's worst enemy... Or at least, on my computer.

I know that Fred has two vassals that Wang hates and that the attitude of Wang towards the team is the average of the attitudes towards Fred and his vassals, but I do not think this should change anything to the "worst enemy" stuff.

Now I admit I also use BUG and the unofficial patch, but I tried to load the save without the latter first and the former after, and still had the problem.

Someone enlighten me ?

 

[JujuLautre]

3 downloads of the save and no one to tell me if they have the same problem as me? Please, guys...

 

[Lone Wolf]

I do not think this should change anything to the "worst enemy" stuff.

This should.

 

[DanF5771]

^ I agree and can confirm that nothing is broken with your installation.

An AI's worst enemy is determined by checking team attitudes which are subject to the averaging procedure for the other civs' master/vassals (while the game always only displays the player attitudes). Team attitudes make sense here since the DENIAL_WORST_ENEMY is relevant for team trades (techs, maps, open borders, voluntary vassalage, defensive pacts and permanent alliances + one player trade -> resources).

A vassal can never be his master's worst enemy, but it is possible the other way around = the master can be the worst enemy of one of his vassals (BtS 3.17, don't know about 3.19 yet).

But why isn't Shaka = the player Wang Kon clearly hates the most [-7] his chosen worst enemy?
Because WK's team attitude towards Freddy averages WK's player attitudes for Freddy + his 2 vassals Shaka & Peter ([Friendly + Furious + Furious]/3 = Annoyed) while WK's team attitude towards Shaka only averages the player attitudes for Shaka and his master Freddy ([Furious + Friendly]/2 = Cautious) whereas Freddy's other vassal Peter is not taken into account here. The same holds for WK's team attitude towards Peter.

Thus Freddy is the only player WK has the required team attitude <= Annoyed towards to be eligible to become his worst enemy.

Here is a picture of the glance screen that is also displaying the icons for the respective team attitudes right next to the standard icons + texts for the player attitudes (after messing a bit with the bug mod):

 

[JujuLautre]

Thanks a lot DanF. So basically, this is not really "worst enemy", but "worst enemy team", am I right ?

Thanks a lot for your explanations about the Shaka stuff. Seems broken imo, but I'll live with that

However, could you detail about "the DENIAL_WORST_ENEMY is relevant for team trades (techs, maps, open borders, voluntary vassalage, defensive pacts and permanent alliances + one player trade -> resources)." ? Does that mean that, because here Fred is flagged as Wang's worst enemy, Wang will never trade with Fred's team, that is Fred, Shaka and Peter ? If so, it makes more sense; however, the stuff like "stop trading with Fred" do not make sense, since it's a team stuff.

 

[DanF5771]

So basically, this is not really "worst enemy", but "worst enemy team", am I right ?

Exactly. But pay attention to the fact that vassals do not join the master's team at the moment of capitulation or voluntary vassalage -- they still remain their own separate team with their own unique team ID. Players can only be members of the same team if you set them up like this at the start of the game or they enter a permanent alliance late game, provided this option is enabled.

So Freddy is only team Freddy, Shaka is still team Shaka and Peter is still team Peter! That's the confusing part about the averaging mechanic for team attitudes towards masters/vassals, as it not only includes the team members with the same team ID, but also the vassals/master team members with different IDs.

So you are right about Wang denying all potential trades of the mentioned kinds with team Freddy via DENIAL_WORST_ENEMY, but it is not true for Freddy's vassals team Shaka & team Peter. This can be tested in debug mode by jumping into Freddy and Shaka and trying to trade with Wang for world maps (Wang's threshold is Annoyed; diplo needs a little tweaking to achieve the previous levels due to the invalidation of PeaceWeight-modifiers).

As Freddy (WK's player attitude = Friendly, team attitude = Annoyed, worst enemy):

As Shaka (WK's player attitude = Furious, team attitude = Cautious):

I also don't fully understand why DENIAL_WORST_ENEMY is not relevant for the embargo-trade. This trade seems to be a special case as it is implemented between players (CvPlayerAI::AI_stopTradingTrade()) while it checks team attitudes. But since there isn't a single leader with a StopTrading threshold of Furious, there is also no real problem (a potential worst enemy will always receive the denial "We just don't like you enough"). Furthermore the AIs never negotiate trade embargoes with other AIs, they only bug the human player with their requests.

 

[JujuLautre]

Well, there is still something strange. Because basically, if we consider the current case again, Wang will mind if I trade with Freddy (with whom he is friendly) but will not mind if I trade with Shaka (with whom he is furious). A more logical state would be either the opposite (mind for Shaka but not for Fred), or he should be angry if I trade with the team at all.

If worst enemy applies denial to the "team", then why not consider Fred as Wang's enemy indeed; but other things ("you traded with our worst enemy", "stop trading with ... please") are leader-related, and not team-related, while the denial is "team"-related.

I'll live with that, but something definitely smells fishy in here.

 

[DanF5771]

Please stop calling a master-vassal-conglomerate "team" -- I have a hard time not confusing the one with the other myself .

I agree, although not exactly "strange", these special situations lead to a highly non-intuitive AI behaviour, especially in the eyes of gamers who don't know about the difference of player attitude and the hidden team attitude... Maybe the BUG-gurus can come up with a solution similar to my hacked glance screen above (though it is kind of confusing).

At least the interface tells the truth about who the current worst enemies are to avoid earning diplo demerits (which ARE team related). But yes, there is a fishy smelling cloud floating around the worst-enemy-concept and its implementation -- just ask TMIT about it, he is a great fan .

 

[JujuLautre]

That's why I put "team" under quotes, so that you knew I was not talking about team

Thanks again for your help and explanations, they are most appreciated

 

[TheMeInTeam]

just ask TMIT about it, he is a great fan .

Indeed I am. You know what makes this even funnier? This whole averaging thing is ignored for diplo win votes!!! So this guy would probably vote his worst enemy to win. Cute .

 

[JujuLautre]

Indeed I am. You know what makes this even funnier? This whole averaging thing is ignored for diplo win votes!!! So this guy would probably vote his worst enemy to win. Cute .

And he did, good point

Good thing I gifted mass media to Peter, really

 

[PieceOfMind]

3 downloads of the save and no one to tell me if they have the same problem as me? Please, guys...

I was one who downloaded it. It must have slipped my mind but I think I was able to reproduce it, though it was confusing the hell out of me - possibly why I left it go.