Worst of the Worst -- The Axis of Evil

Which is the Worst of the Worst in the Axis of Evil?

  • Islamic Republic of Iran

    Votes: 8 17.8%
  • Republic of Iraq

    Votes: 27 60.0%
  • Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea)

    Votes: 10 22.2%

  • Total voters
    45
Originally posted by rmsharpe
All nations that had embraced communism -- the Soviet Union, China, Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, North Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua, Ethiopia, Mozambique, and a few others, have all been ruled by a ruthless dictator.

Technically this can be argued to be false, if one were to class Salvador Alliende as a Communist.

However, Alliende was a democratically elected, popular marxist, hence he went against every piece of propoganda regarding Communists there was going and had to be removed.

And guess who replaced him? That's right, Augusto Pinochet, the most brutal dictator Chile ever had.

Please stop trying to make out that Communism is fundamentally evil simply because it can be easily hijakced by power hungry tyrants.

It's like saying religion is evil because theocracies have had a tendency to be brutal, intolerant, bloody affairs.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe

Political and economic freedoms go hand in hand. You can't have a dictoral capitalism,

japan has a long history of economic freedom, but how political free have they been?
 
Originally posted by animepornstar
japan has a long history of economic freedom, but how political free have they been?

I'm talking post-World War II...
 
Originally posted by Fayadi
All of you have underestimated the North Korea's strenth ,they got about 1.5 million troops you know more than US 1.4 million troops.North Korea should be the most dangerous threat,by the way....

North Korea did not do anything to hurt its people or others.They have no intention to attack others by the way.South Korean describes the North Korean missiles as "Korean Missiles" because they believe the North Korean will not use it against their own people(South Korea).In any way,North Korea has their right to build Nukes or ICBM as long as they have no cruel intention like Iran or Iraq.So Bush is selfish,you have the right to build nuke but others cant?Kim Jung Il ,the communist part members and the soldiers have dream of united korea.Among the three North Korea seems to have the best atitude from meeting US secretary of state in 1999/2000 ,meeting Kim Dae Jung in 2000.They definitely trying their efforts to unite Korea.Bush is wrong to anger North Korea,North Korea is not Afghanistan,if US decided to invade it,they will risk a nuclear war and they will be probably had a lot of casualties(hundreds of thousands of lives).
I would have to say Clinton is much a better diplomat,eases tension between North Korea

As far as hurting their own people, I seem to remember something about 10% of the population starving while the government bought more and more weapons.

Also, size of army is not always the most important thing. Iraq used to have a big army....
 
I know I'm stereotyping, but Asians are more disciplined than Arabs in terms of the military. Remember the scary Iraqi "republican guard?" Whoever didn't run away and sell their guns got their butts bombed.

During the Korean War, the Communists didn't abandon their ideology when the Allies were beginning to push to the north.

In a place like Afghanistan, though...one day, you're a Northern Alliance soldier, next day, you're the Taliban. Two days from that you are the Southern Taliban Alliance, and so on...
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
I know I'm stereotyping, but Asians are more disciplined than Arabs in terms of the military. Remember the scary Iraqi "republican guard?" Whoever didn't run away and sell their guns got their butts bombed.

During the Korean War, the Communists didn't abandon their ideology when the Allies were beginning to push to the north.

In a place like Afghanistan, though...one day, you're a Northern Alliance soldier, next day, you're the Taliban. Two days from that you are the Southern Taliban Alliance, and so on...

Very true, but the whole thing is theoretical really. The US isn't going to invade N. Korea. Not in a conventional ground slugging match. We've done that before, it wasn't fun for either side, and then the Chinese came and made it less fun.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe


Political and economic freedoms go hand in hand. You can't have a dictoral capitalism, or the converse, a democratic communism. Communism has proven to be, so many times in the past, to be the supreme form of dictoral rule.

All nations that had embraced communism -- the Soviet Union, China, Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, North Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua, Ethiopia, Mozambique, and a few others, have all been ruled by a ruthless dictator.

Totally false. You have a political science class at your school? Of course you can have a dictator running a capitalist society. Why not? Why the heck couldn't a communist society choose to elect a leader? :confused:

If you had only erred in saying that communists can't elect leaders, I would have busted out with "That's like saying you can't have a capitalist society with a dictator".

But what the heck do I say to that? :scan:
 
I totally agree with what VoodooAce just posted on this 'communist dictatorship' issue.

Also, size of army is not always the most important thing. Iraq used to have a big army....
Yep, alot depends on the technology and equipment they have at their dispense.

Please stop trying to make out that Communism is fundamentally evil simply because it can be easily hijakced by power hungry tyrants.
Yey, thankyou!:)

All nations that had embraced communism -- the Soviet Union, China, Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, North Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua, Ethiopia, Mozambique, and a few others, have all been ruled by a ruthless dictator
Personally I wouldn't decribe Castro as ruthless:p
And as for the Soviet Union, only Stalin was ruthless, the rest of leaders were a mixed bunch but I wouldn'd describe any of them as 'ruthless'. And besides half of these countries didn't embrace communism, they had it forced upon them, and us idealogical guys don't like that kind of thing.
 
Davo, you do show your youth some times;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Stalin was the only ruthless Soviet leader?:eek: You have got to read some history, my dear boy. Let's go chronologically:
The group who took over after the death of Stalin, and indeed during his final incapacitation: Beria, Malenkov and Khrushchev. Ol' Lavrenti wasn't at all ruthless was he? No, he only murdered, tortured and imprisoned hundreds of thousands hand in hand with Uncle Joe. When he was raping those little schoolgirls it was out of a genuine interest in their education:rolleyes:
Nikita was not all sweetness and light. Far from it. He fought his way up the Party ranks, ended careers, had rivals killed and imprisoned and generally fulfilled the dictionary definition of ruthless.
What about Leonid Brezhnev and Kosygin? The Brezhnev Doctrine was not ruthless, it was fraternal socialist concern for the welfare of his neighbours:rolleyes:
Yuri Andropov. The man was Chairman of KGB. I think that sums it up.
Konstantin Chernenko, although his stay was brief in the top job, was not a good egg:p
Gorby has a sainted image to many in the West, but was ruthless as any of his predecessors. He didn't have thousands shot, but that is not the only part of being ruthless.

Enough of Soviet History 101. Now for Carribean Studies.

Fidel is a highly ruthless and adaptable man. How else would he have done what he has? You have to be a real bastard to make it in any political system, in any society. Don't let youthful idealism blind ye to that truth.

"And besides half of these countries didn't embrace communism, they had it forced upon them, and us idealogical guys don't like that kind of thing."
I do think the people who had a totalitarian dictatorship forced upon them didn't like it much either.

Too much blind idealism is a bad thing. It leads to rash words and actions, at the least.
By the same token, too much realism is a bad thing. A bit of idealism, and believing in and following principles is a good thing.
A path of moderation, and carrying a pouch of salt, so you can add a pinch of it to everything you encounter, is part of a good outlook in life.
 
Originally posted by ComradeDavo
And as for the Soviet Union, only Stalin was ruthless

BARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!


Total tosh alert!

As a side note, I'm not quite sure why Simon declined to do us the priviledge of mentioning Lenin, who was probably the most ruthless of the lot, save Stalin.
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
You have to be a real bastard to make it in any political system, in any society.

Very true unfortunately. That's why everything ultimately failed...
But nevertheless there's a difference between Stalin and for example Khruchtshev in terms of "being ruthless". Most Soviet leaders after Stalin (maybe except Breshniev) were not much more ruthless then most western leaders.
 
Most Soviet leaders after Stalin (maybe except Breshniev) were not much more ruthless then most western leaders.

Thats what I was implying. And I had frogotten about Brezhnev:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:*smacks self round head*

I was going on the basis of ruthless meaning going round having loads of purges etc. Or else i'd have to start talking about Maggie Thatcher:p

But to be honset is Castro really any more ruthless than Bush is today? Come on, 15 mins for a death penalty?! It's all about circumstances if you ask me.

Davo, you do show your youth some times
hey, I'm in a learning process, it might surprise you but I do pay attention to all this political stuff you guys tell me:D If i've learnt one thing in life it is never be naive. And i ain't thaattt young, i'm 17 in May (ok, so quite young). But surely it is healthy to have an interest in politics at this age?:goodjob:
 
Having any sort of interests at that young age is unhealthy, and stop playing with it, or it will drop off.;)

Include Lenin in my analysis. He was also extremely ruthless, and prepared to kill, maim, torture and starve in order to seize power, and preserve it, for himself.

To say that the Soviets were somewhat equivalent to Western leaders after Stalin is patently false. They were all the product of a bloodthirsty ruthless system where rivals and dissidents were eliminated by any means necessary. Anyone who calls Andropov a nice person, and only as ruthless as a Western leader is putting their head in the clouds.

Castro is more ruthless than Bush, as he has removed all dissent from his society with extreme prejudice, and his rivals have all "disappeared".
It is a typical fault of the "radical chic left" to view Castro and Che Guevara as romantic heros who couldn't possibly do anything naughty, but the truth is somewhat different.

Bush could be described as somewhat ruthless by Western standards, maybe, but he is not on the same level as totalitarian dictators.
 
Donald Rumsfeld Thinks You're an Idiot
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3...0&group=webcast

According to CNN, Donald Rumsfeld has claimed that the Iranian government may have aided Taleban and al-Qaida agents to escape from Afghanistan into Iran, in a desperate attempt to justify Bush's inclusion of Iran in the "axis of evil" with Iraq and North Korea.

What CNN has not reported, nor has the New York Times, nor TIME (who first broke the story), is that the Iranian government has angrily denied the administration's allegations (this was reported in the British paper, the Guardian), and pointed out what our own press had been saying (TIME, MSNBC) earlier: Iran hates the Taleban and al-Qaeda and has no desire to have ties with them or help them out ("We hated each other and we never had any commonalities," the head of Iran's powerful Guardian Council, Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, said Friday.). Why? Because:

Iran's government, and most of Iran's populace, are Shi'ite Muslims, whereas the Taleban and al-Qaeda are Sunni, and have participated in persecution and massacres of Shi'ites
Iran's strategic interests in Afghanistan have traditionally been head-to-head in conflict against those of Pakistan. Iran backed the Northern Alliance against the Pakistan-backed Taliban for years before the US ever got involved.
Iran nearly went to war with the Taliban after ten Iranian diplomats and a journalist were murdered during the Taliban conquest of Mazar-i-Sharif

So, where did Rumsfeld get the ludicrous idea that Iran is helping out the Taliban and al-Qaeda? From that extremely reliable source, Ismail Khan, the brutal warlord of Herat province (see the TIME report). The main interesting fact of all this is that Khan has historically been backed by Iran, and took refuge in Iran twice while the Taliban was in power. However, Afghan Prime Minister Karzai wants to negotiate with Khan about concerns over Iranian influence [Afghan Radio]. Khan has long been in conflict with other powerful United Front anti-Taliban fighters such as Gul Agha Shirzai, the warlord of Kandahar, and Abdul Rashid Dostum, a northern warlord. There may be reason to believe, then, that Khan wants to solidify his position within the new government by cutting his ties with Iran, which have traditionally been a source of friction between him and the rest of the mujahedeen.

The real issue here is that Rumsfeld thinks we are stupid enough to swallow this ludicrous report. Or if the report does turn out to be true, he doesn't think he needs to give any kind of explanation for such a bizarre turn of events. He just assumes people will think "Oh, Iran, yeah, they're terrorists, so naturally they'll help out anyone else who commits terrorism against the US." And the US newsmedia are doing their best to help ensure that happens, since they refuse to report on Iran's statements or to provide any background on the conflicts between Iran and the Taliban.

Ever since Iran revolted against the US-installed Shah in 1979 and established an anti-US government, many on the Right have been chomping at the bit to conquer Iran and install a new pro-US government. Here is their perfect opportunity. If they can make this story stick, the Bush administration has a sure-fire reason to insist that Iran is a state which harbors terrorists the United States is trying to apprehend - the same reason they used to wage war on the Taliban. And the Right-wing hawks have a sure-fire way of expanding the "war on terror" into Iran.

Don't let Rumsfeld take you for a fool. Contact the Department of Defense and demand further explanation of the basis for their allegations against Iran. Contact national media outlets, particularly CNN, and demand that they do responsible research into the background of claims made by the Department of Defense and Afghan warlords, particularly when another war is on the line and everyone is asking where we will start bombing next.



What do the people here think about this??




And, if i recall correctly Dubya sent more people to the electric chair than Castro, and those that were sentenced to death were some serious Batista killers.
Castro is very popular in Cuba still, ive never been to Cuba but many of my relatives did.It is a very popular place to go, specially between Argentineans, in most of latin america people hate us because of some misterious reason but in Cuba we are very popular cus Che Guevara was argentinean.
If you go to Cuba as a tourist you can travel all along the island with no restrictions visiting all the cities and far away towns, and the gobernment is very popular, and its not the effect of propaganda, the people are very very well educated and know whats happening all around the globe.
Of course, Cuba its not perfect, but if we compare Cuba with some other Capitalistic tropical paradices, Cuba wins, it has the very best educational sistem and sanitation sistem.
Sometimes they dont have enough medications but that is more related with the sanctions against Cuba.
Many tropical paradices consist of complex of hotels for tourist and you cant get out of the hotel because outside it is very insecure and people are starving.
The fact of you being able to travel all along cuba with few limitations suggests something by itself.
There is a very famous saying in Cuba that says, in the world 2104976504981 (some number) of kids die in the world from starvation, none of them was cuban.
Anyway, i am not a commie, and i recognize that La Habana look like a ruin of a city from 1950, and most of the cars they use are cars from the 40s and 50s that were fixed once and again, but this is also related with the sanction.
Iam not a deffender of Cuba, i thinbk that one of the causes of the Popularity of Castro are the sanctions, the sanctions bring the people together in Cuba.
With no sanctions we would see if Castro remains popular and if the causes of the problems of Cuba were because of Castro or because of the sanction.

I still dont understand why cuba is considered a terrorism sponsor country, Cuba suffered some years ago terrorism, some bombs exploded in hotels in La Habana doing a great damage to the Cuban economy that strongly dependes of tourism,
and it seems that they were made by the cuban community from miami, but hey no-one is calling Gloria Estefan a terrorist:p
I think that the sanctions against Cuba exist because of the need to capture the votes of La Florida, many countries in the world are far worst than Cuba, but one is too populated and has a fast growing economy and others are too full of oil.

I think that if americans were able to go on vacations to Cuba they would change their mind really quickly.

The usa has made some serious **** in the 70s in latin america imposing addict dictatorships unstead of the democratically elected gobernments like in my country or Chile with Allende.
Thousands of people died and no-one is accusing the usa of being a terrorist state.
 
the link is broken kublai

what is bush going to do about north korea? there is no way that they will attack the country, because their military is to strong and their is no opposition there. so, why are bush giving kim jong II more reasons till have giantic armyn when the people is starving, by saying that the united states cannot stand by and fail to respond when kim jong II actually have seemed more willing to cooperate with the rest of the world the last years?
 
Originally posted by Kublai-Khan

And, if i recall correctly Dubya sent more people to the electric chair than Castro, and those that were sentenced to death were some serious Batista killers.

No way. Besides the fact that Bush was killing criminals, Castro was killing all kinds political opposition, and this was for a long time after the Batista's were done. This doesn't even mention the torture he inflicted on some to pry information out of them.

As for Iran, apparently Khamenei is trying to use the power vacume to regain influence in southwestern Afghanistan, and thus is supporting warlords such as the one who is currently fighting against fellow Afghans (I think Khan was his name). Iran isn't supporting Taliban and Al Queda, but they are supporting their own people in Afghanistan, and the US doesn't want them doing it.

P.S. I think the axis of evil tag speech was kinda dumb too, but I think there is some reason Bush made it. Maybe some secret master plan ;) .
 
Please stop trying to make out that Communism is fundamentally evil simply because it can be easily hijakced by power hungry tyrants.

Perhaps I was part of this effort. In that case I will switch to making out that communism is fundamentally dangerous, especially because it can be easily hijacked by power hungry tryants.
 
Originally posted by Maj


Kinda like unchecked capitalism. *hint* *hint*

Please list the power hungry tyrants who have hijacked capitalism that compare to those that hijacked communism. I would be interested to see who you compare to Stalin or Mao.

I personally would disagree that capitalism can be so easily hijacked. Hamlet made a point, and it is a valid one. The concept of communism is not fundamentaly evil. But if, as he states, it can be easily hijacked by tyrants, then I would argue that it is dangerous. I would also argue that anything can be painted as dangerous, thus relative danger must be wieghed. I don't doubt for a second that you can come up with numerous abuses of 'unchecked' (define) capitalism. I only question whether any of them will prove that capitalism is just as dangerous as communism. I personally don't thnk so.
 
Originally posted by Kublai-Khan
Donald Rumsfeld Thinks You're an Idiot
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3...0&group=webcast

I think that this administrations official policy is that if you say the same thing, over and over again, whether is true or a bunch of crap, that there are enough idiots that will begin to believe it. Sad thing is, some of these people believe it the first time they here it. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by rmsharpe

No, but they are good friends of Al-Qaeda.[/B]

Uh, no, they aren't. Iran has batteled with the Taliban since their inception.

The Iranian people might not want a nuclear war, but -- if some screwball fundamentalist is running the military[/B]


As America does now. :lol:
 
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