Worst of the Worst -- The Axis of Evil

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by rmsharpe


Oh, please. This is getting ridiculous.

You're comparing the United States armed forces to the Soviet Union, and the Viet Cong now.

First, we're doing anything BUT torturing the detainees. We have signs pointing to Mecca for them, "culturally approved" meals, they are even allowed to converse with each other. What the hell else do you want us to do, free them?

You're right, RM, it is getting ridiculous. If the US wants to act like the USSR or the Nam, then, uh, you're damn right that's who I'll compare them...and you...to.

The US, at least the US that I had always thought of, would blast any nation publicly (unless it was a dictator we happened to be supporting at the time) that used ANY method that even came close to defying the Geneva Convention. Rather than arguing whether or not they desever the right to be treated correctly, why not just err on the side of human decency, huh?

But there are enough ignorant fools in America that obviously don't appreciate what it is I thought we stood for.

This statement makes my case for me:

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Which ones? The fact that they are human beings doesn't automatically qualify the for POW status under the Geneva Convention or would you have Germany brought before the World Court for its treatment of the Baader Meinhof Gang.

Why the F*CK would anyone make an argument that any group of people aren't deserving of what the Geneva Convention deetermined to be humane treatement??? I just don't get that kind of attitude.....its sick. And, uh, YEAH, if the Germands treated ANYBODY in a manner that would be in conflict with the Convention, I would want them punished for it. Of course. You were thinking I'd answer differently?

And if I'm the ONLY person that's actually seen anything on whether we should torture the POW's, then I'll eat my words.

But I haven't been imagining it, Dino.....maybe you've just been ignoring it?

I saw the debate two nites ago on the Alan Keyes show (he was against it, btw), and I saw it debated on the O'Reilly Factor, on your fav channel GOP News, aka Fox News. Sounded like O'Reilly was against it, as well, but he wasn't so adamant as Alan Keyes. This is just the past couple of nights...there was crap on it a few times over the weekend, too.

WTF did you think? I just made it up?????

Also, Dino, please try to debate in good faith. Don't take a sentence here, a phrase there, and just reply to them with doublespeak, semantics and technicalities.

BTW, I'll never admit to ignorance again, lol.

 

[amadeus]

I have yet to see one of the left-wingers out here tell me why they officially want to comply fully with the Geneva Convention.

We are not beating, torturing, or killing any of these prisoners. The only rights that were violated were the ones of the Americans killed on September 11th to live a free and productive life, free of terror and fear.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by VoodooAce


You're right, RM, it is getting ridiculous. If the US wants to act like the USSR or the Nam, then, uh, you're damn right that's who I'll compare them...and you...to.

The United States is not acting like the Soviet Union. We've given every right that the detainees deserve that would not compromise our security, and frankly, if you ask me -- they're getting a lot better treatment than they deserve.

And if I'm the ONLY person that's actually seen anything on whether we should torture the POW's, then I'll eat my words.

Hope you've got an empty stomach...

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
I have yet to see one of the left-wingers out here tell me why they officially want to comply fully with the Geneva Convention.

We are not beating, torturing, or killing any of these prisoners. The only rights that were violated were the ones of the Americans killed on September 11th to live a free and productive life, free of terror and fear.

Very simple.

I DO understand that they aren't being treated as badly as some of our boys in the Nam, or in Japanese POW camps. I DO understand, as Fox News drums into us nightly, that they are probably living better than some of the guys in the field in certain ways.

I also think its irrelevant. Come on, I know you know the Golden Rule, right? Do unto others?

Its not 'Do unto others as they DO unto you', its 'Do unto others as you would HAVE them do unto you'.

Or how about this one. Two wrongs do NOT make a right?

Seems pretty simple to me.

But if I've gotten any clear message over the last 4 or 5 months, its that Americans don't necessarily believe in these Golden Rules. We should uphold the HIGHEST standards, as an example, as the most powerful nation on earth.

Although, I did just read this morning that Duhbya may actually agree with me. We are apparently going to upgrade the treatment of the prisoners because Duh-bya fears that if we mistreat their guys, they'll mistreat our soldiers.

Very genius, Duh-bya.....it took him how many months to figure that out?

Still, it probably won't matter because they'll still treat our soldiers like crap. It will still be wrong. And it STILL won't be an excuse for us to stoop to their level.

 

[ComradeDavo]

The United States is not acting like the Soviet Union. We've given every right that the detainees deserve that would not compromise our security, and frankly, if you ask me -- they're getting a lot better treatment than they deserve.

I notice the use of 'compromise our security'.....heard that one many times before. From both the Soviet's and the American's.

And if I'm the ONLY person that's actually seen anything on whether we should torture the POW's, then I'll eat my words.

I have heard rumours of the use of drugs and so on, which I consider to be torture. Therefore you do not have to eat your words

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by rmsharpe


The United States is not acting like the Soviet Union. We've given every right that the detainees deserve that would not compromise our security, and frankly, if you ask me -- they're getting a lot better treatment than they deserve.



Hope you've got an empty stomach...

Ah, I see, RM.

Since YOU haven't seen it, it HASN"T happened, huh? So you're all seeing then? Omnipotent? Puh-lease!

In every state except Tennessee you gotta be at least twenty one years old to be omnipotent.

 

[CurtSibling]

The common people of the USA are not any more evil than the
People of "evil" Iraq, Korea or Iran.

How can a whole nation be evil? Every living person?...grow up.

Beware of the ignorant labelling of a whole race as "evil".
It's the leaders of these nations who are useless and lawless, Not the women and kiddies.

I am dissapointed in the crass generalisation of this dubious thread.

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by VoodooAce

Why the F*CK would anyone make an argument that any group of people aren't deserving of what the Geneva Convention deetermined to be humane treatement???

Quite simply, it has long been recognized that spies and sabatours are not entitled to protection under the Geneva condition. I point you no farther than the German sabateurs washed on American shores during WWII to be like terrorists and destroy our infrastructure. They were executed, as is perfectly in a nation's rights to do so if they violate the "rules" of war.

As for the detainees, I think they are being treated humanely, just not under the Geneva Convetion. They have special food, medicine, Koran's, etc. I doubt they are being tortured, nor should they be tortured. However, I believe we do have a right to interrogate them (as police would do a subject) and not just ask for name, rank, and serial number. And should evidence link them to directly abetting the terrorist attacks, they should be punished appropiately, as would any massive terrorist attack on civilians that is not protected under any conventions of war.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by PinkyGen

As for the detainees, I think they are being treated humanely, just not under the Geneva Convetion. They have special food, medicine, Koran's, etc. I doubt they are being tortured, nor should they be tortured. However, I believe we do have a right to interrogate them (as police would do a subject) and not just ask for name, rank, and serial number. And should evidence link them to directly abetting the terrorist attacks, they should be punished appropiately, as would any massive terrorist attack on civilians that is not protected under any conventions of war.

Well said.



Although in regard to the Germans,
spies or saboteurs can't do much in a jail cell.
Execution was maybe a bit hardcore.

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Why the F*CK would anyone make an argument that any group of people aren't deserving of what the Geneva Convention deetermined to be humane treatement???

I argue that Al Qaeda fighters are not deserving of POW status unless you would care to come up with any substantive differences between them and the Baader Meinhof Gang. Terrorists are not and they never have been protected under the Geneva Convention.

I've also never said anything about torturing the men.

 

[animepornstar]

Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

al-qaeda maybe not apply to all those, but:

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

read more here: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

 

[Greadius]

One of the underlying factors of the Geneva Convention is it protects soldiers fighting for their country.

Maybe I haven't looked at a map lately, but where exactly is the country of Al Qeada?
These people are either terrorists or mercenaries, and NEITHER are protected by the Geneva Convention. As far as the nationality breakdown, I don't believe any of the ones in Guantanmo Bay were Afghan. The current leader of Afghanistan said he wanted them out of his country anyway, therefor he isn't extending the protection of the Geneva Convention to those people.

In summary, to be protected by the Geneva convention one needs to have been fighting for a nationality. Al Qaeda isn't a nation; they don't get the protection.


About the Axis of Evil, I think its interesting that when Bill Clinton was president he wrote a internal document on American defense policy in 1994. In that document he mentioned only three nations by name as aggressor nations; Iraq, Iran and South Korea. The point is that labeling these nations as the enemy is nothing new, its just more interesting to the public now because of Sept. 11th.

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by animepornstar
al-qaeda maybe not apply to all those, but:

The combatant power who has custody of the prisoners is the power with the authority to constitute a "competent tribunal" under it's military or civil laws. Would you care to take a guess what the ruling of an American military tribunal would be when deciding the status of Al Qaeda fighters?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I argue that Al Qaeda fighters are not deserving of POW status unless you would care to come up with any substantive differences between them and the Baader Meinhof Gang. Terrorists are not and they never have been protected under the Geneva Convention.

THIS IS IT!!!!! The crux of the issue; its alpha and omega. These men are terrorists; not soldiers of a government that had belligerent status under the laws of war. They are not subject to the protections of the Geneva convention, but all the same are being treated in a strict but humane manner. These are individuals who have vowed to kill an American if given the opportunity. They are not nice little innocent people in the wring place at the wrong time. The BM Gang/RAF were not treated as POWs, neither were the Angry Brigade, Action Directe, the Japanese Red Army, the PIRA nor any other terrorist group.

Can anyone present a coherent argument that Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organization?

 

[FearlessLeader2]

The fact the the Taliban are now recognized as POWs could have some severe repercussions for Johnnie.

 

[Greadius]

The Taliban hasn't been recognized as POW's, they were extended the right of the Geneva Convention (which I agree with).

None of the captives taken have been called POW's yet.

 

[CurtSibling]

I recall reading today that Bush has stated that the Al-Queda
losers have no status as war prisoners.

I guess the US jailors on Cuba can get the electrodes out...

 

[VoodooAce]

Ok.

See, I don't care that these guys are treated humanely, per se. I agree that they are animals.

My concern isn't for them.

My concern is that its actually AMERICA....you know, Mom, apple pie, red white and blue.....that's arguing whether someone deserves to be treated with this certain degree of humanity or that. Surprise, surprise, I've always been very patriotic in the belief not just that America always fought the good fight and beat the bad guys, but that we did it with honor. We wore the white hat, and always admonished people for even arguing what we're arguing. That's all.

Now that's pretty corny and all, but I can't think of any better way to express it.

 

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
The fact the the Taliban are now recognized as POWs could have some severe repercussions for Johnnie.

Walker-Lindh should just be glad he isn't being put before a military tribunal as US law allows.