OK, that's good. Come to think of it, most UUs have a good way to use them
Worst Unique Unit?
- Thread starter Bowsling
- Start date
It depends on how you judge them. Do you want:
1.) A unit you know you can use?
2.) A unit you know will be effective if you get it?
Ballista Elephants are not guaranteed for the Khmer, though I seem to find ivory in virtually all of the games I play as them. So if you value getting your unique unit every game, then they are the worst.
Dog Soldiers and Jaguar Warriors are worse at attacking cities than their base units (in single player mode, anyway.) So if you value effectiveness more than reliability and use axe or sword rushes they are the worst. (Before anyone says that Sitting Bull can make great use of them in defense, try chariot rushing him.)
I have a strong preference for Ballista Elephants over Jaguar Warriors, as the former are monstrously powerful if you can get them. I think people simply don't like playing as the Khmer and thus don't realize how much easier it is to get ivory if you begin looking for it from the beginning of the game rather than just happening to settle near it.
However I think the actual worst unit is the Panzer, since it fails on both counts. Most warmongering games will not go long enough for you to get much use out of them, and if you are in a tech race there shouldn't be any other armored units for you to fight.
1.) A unit you know you can use?
2.) A unit you know will be effective if you get it?
Ballista Elephants are not guaranteed for the Khmer, though I seem to find ivory in virtually all of the games I play as them. So if you value getting your unique unit every game, then they are the worst.
Dog Soldiers and Jaguar Warriors are worse at attacking cities than their base units (in single player mode, anyway.) So if you value effectiveness more than reliability and use axe or sword rushes they are the worst. (Before anyone says that Sitting Bull can make great use of them in defense, try chariot rushing him.)
I have a strong preference for Ballista Elephants over Jaguar Warriors, as the former are monstrously powerful if you can get them. I think people simply don't like playing as the Khmer and thus don't realize how much easier it is to get ivory if you begin looking for it from the beginning of the game rather than just happening to settle near it.
However I think the actual worst unit is the Panzer, since it fails on both counts. Most warmongering games will not go long enough for you to get much use out of them, and if you are in a tech race there shouldn't be any other armored units for you to fight.
AfterShafter
Deity
Is this post a joke? I mean, naming two situationally incredibly powerful UU's for reactions? Serious question
BigChiefLizzy
Warlord
Any of Dog soldiers/Jaguar Warriors and Ballista elephants as has already been mentioned.
I thought the native american UU in Civ 3 was better (mounted so needed horses but was quite reasonable iirc).
I would add Holkan, maybe not the worst but pretty poor/very situational - if you start next to the mongols/persia then they will be useful. But otherwise no - poor at taking cities with low base strength (do have immunity to first strikes though), but useless at defending against axes and swords which most aggressors will be using.
I thought the native american UU in Civ 3 was better (mounted so needed horses but was quite reasonable iirc).
I would add Holkan, maybe not the worst but pretty poor/very situational - if you start next to the mongols/persia then they will be useful. But otherwise no - poor at taking cities with low base strength (do have immunity to first strikes though), but useless at defending against axes and swords which most aggressors will be using.
Holkans are useful for early rushing if you don't have copper, which makes them useful. Additionally, they are immune to first strikes, which makes them much better vs archers than normal spearmen. They are also great for stack protecting your chariots if you don't get copper. There's also another important ability: you can build them even if your opponent has pillaged/captured your copper with mounted units.
The Dog Soldier is a good UU in Immortal&Emperor levels if you don't plan an axe rush. It gives a guaranteed barb defense without need to connect Bronze or Horses ASAP. Lower it's probably useless.
Ai Shizuka
King
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2008
- Messages
- 856
War chariot, fast worker and KESHIK mentioned in a thread about the worst UU? Are you kidding?
My choices:
- Panzer. Doesn't offer anything useful over his standard counterpart.
- Ballista Elephant. See above.
- Gallic warrior.
My choices:
- Panzer. Doesn't offer anything useful over his standard counterpart.
- Ballista Elephant. See above.
- Gallic warrior.
I was shocked about keshik as well, after some of the games I've won producing nothing but keshiks for about 200 turns. They're strong against just about any pre-gunpowder unit, and if promoted properly, you'll lose 1 for every spear you encounter, and the second will kill the spear. The trick with mongolia is playing them right to maximize the keshik's value. Tech AH-HBR first - settler out to claim horse. Build barracks and stable in capital and then spam them out like crazy while getting the rest of the key worker techs together. 6-7 of them is enough to start rushing.
I thought Holkans were extremely poor when I used them to rush, so I find them to be useful in very limited situations. I would say ballista as well, except the only game I played with Sury had Justy and Hannibal as nearby neighbors, and I had ivory in hand. Beeline construction, and ballistas were deadly to both.
Every one is situational to some degree, but based on my play style (more warring most of the time), the ones with less usefulness for me are the holkan, panzer (too late to be too effective - I've typically either won or lost by then), and impis (which I think of as more of a defensive unit). Impis are pretty solid in the AI's hands against me, since I so often use horses to attack.
I thought Holkans were extremely poor when I used them to rush, so I find them to be useful in very limited situations. I would say ballista as well, except the only game I played with Sury had Justy and Hannibal as nearby neighbors, and I had ivory in hand. Beeline construction, and ballistas were deadly to both.
Every one is situational to some degree, but based on my play style (more warring most of the time), the ones with less usefulness for me are the holkan, panzer (too late to be too effective - I've typically either won or lost by then), and impis (which I think of as more of a defensive unit). Impis are pretty solid in the AI's hands against me, since I so often use horses to attack.
sydhe
King of Kongs
Doesn't the Impi get to keep the extra movement point when it upgrades? That right there is a good reason to build a lot of Impis.
Notadolfhitler
Chieftain
My least favorite Unique Unit is the Musketeer. Correct me if I'm wrong but all they do is get a movement bonus? Ballista elephants are pretty bad too, but my favorite unique units are the East Indianmen or the Praetorian. Though i have not played as EVERY character in the game I mainly stick to willy, the caesars, freddy or monty.
EDIT: The carrack is good on certain maps (Terra or any other colonization maps)
The War chariot was awesome when i owned as the Egyptians
EDIT: The carrack is good on certain maps (Terra or any other colonization maps)
The War chariot was awesome when i owned as the Egyptians
I strongly dislike Dog Soldiers as well... a PRO leader shouldn't need them for defense and offensively they are quite often a liability rather than an asset.
Ballista Elephants and Panzer might be low-impact UUs but at least I won't rant about wishing to have the regular unit instead.
Ballista Elephants and Panzer might be low-impact UUs but at least I won't rant about wishing to have the regular unit instead.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Nope, they don't keep the extra movement, just mobility (which is useful only for 2+ move units).
They are OK if you can upgrade them to mech inf though
AfterShafter
Deity
Ha ha... You know, you're one of my favorite posters/players around here, but you're constantly bashing my favorite stuff man! Viva la Dog Soldier
Jewman
Prince
camel archer sucks.
nuff said.
nuff said.
I tend to play as expansionist civs a lot and so getting a ton of workers out early on and getting improvements finished quickly is never an issue. I can't imagine why I'd ever need workers to be even faster unless, as I said earlier, my start is surrounded by jungle and I quickly need to dig myself out of the hole I'm stuck in.
Also, yeah, fast workers never go obsolete in the sense that you can always build them but imo they do go obsolete in the sense that by around the mid to late renaissance your infrastructure is largely completed and you can comfortably pump out a ton of workers from high production cities and so having faster workers becomes completely irrelevant.
@ Aftershaver: thanks for the compliment, and haha indeed... I noticed that we like very different things in this game as well 
Your eloquent points in defence of my least favourite things come close to convincing me... until the next time they come up in play again and I realise yet again that my favoured tool for even the most intricate problem is an economic sledge hammer.
Apart from one grueling Deity game that actually made me go 'thank heavens I drew Gilgamesh as my random leader...'.
Your eloquent points in defence of my least favourite things come close to convincing me... until the next time they come up in play again and I realise yet again that my favoured tool for even the most intricate problem is an economic sledge hammer.
Apart from one grueling Deity game that actually made me go 'thank heavens I drew Gilgamesh as my random leader...'.
Bowsling
Deity
dog soldiers are amazing for a rush. put citizens on very food-productive tiles, pop-rush a few in slavery, then *ahem* exterminate your neighbors. 
Dog Soldiers CAN rush, but they are worse than Holkans, and many people don't even like attacking with them. (I think they are OK- you just have to attack early enough.) I suspect that Aftershafter and other defenders of Protective and Dog Soldiers don't go for the exploitative ways of playing. IE, not using a chariot or axe rush every game, not engaging in worker raiding, etc. If that's your cup of tea, then go for it.
AfterShafter
Deity
Heh, ok, there's enough going on I figure I'd better clarify my position on dog soldiers a bit. First off, they aren't the best UU by a longshot in my eyes, so I'm not trying to push that down anyone's throats - but they do have their charms...
Sitting Bull, in general, tends to be a guy suited to doing more with less, which makes him excellent on higher difficulties and superfluous on lower - or that's my take. You don't need spectacular lands to run a good SE with him, he doesn't need any resources to run a formidable army at any point in the game, and that army can leverage terrain and cities to becoming all but invincible on the defence. You give SB a pile of rocks with some food, and he can be a competitor if properly used.
Now, in keeping with this "useful on higher, useless on lower" theme, I find on Emperor axe rushing is a huge resource hog with no assurance of success. On Immortal it is at best ill advised, and on Deity, it's a good way to see if you get a better map next time. This strips axes of a lot of their offensive glory - and that being the case, the dog soldier all of the sudden starts to fill an almost entirely new role. The one real weakness, for periods, in the protective Civ's military ability is the archer pre-longbow period, when regular archers just don't have the stuff to be really safe defensive units or primary attacking units. The big hitters of that period give them a rough time - axemen and swordsmen, mainly, and heaven forbid someone have Praets. Dog Soldiers almost completely fill in this weakness, while keeping with SB's "something from nothing" theme.
I find, on Immortal +, I can feel really safe with Sitting Bull with no resources whatsoever. When the CPU expands like mad, sometimes being able to say "Ok, I won't jump for that copper" will make the difference between a strong early economy and a sluggish one. The dog soldier gives you that luxury.
Yes, it's not the attacking unit an axemen is - but, if you're axe rushing on Immortal +, you either have an absolutely amazing start or you're just nuts. The dog soldier, on the other hand, fills a noticeable gap in SB's armor, and really gives you a great deal of luxury to say "I don't really care about military resources." For anyone else, it's pretty so-so, I admit... But SB isn't anyone else - he's the guy which lets you do something with nothing. Dog soldiers work in that role very well.
Oh, and...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265560&highlight=Stasis+Rush
Dog soldiers rock for the stasis rush, which works well right up to Immortal
And one last note... I understand why they aren't the favorite, and I understand why people don't go nuts for them. I'm just suggesting, they do work very well in certain roles, and they are an excellent unit for synergy for the resourceless, protective monster that is SB.
Sitting Bull, in general, tends to be a guy suited to doing more with less, which makes him excellent on higher difficulties and superfluous on lower - or that's my take. You don't need spectacular lands to run a good SE with him, he doesn't need any resources to run a formidable army at any point in the game, and that army can leverage terrain and cities to becoming all but invincible on the defence. You give SB a pile of rocks with some food, and he can be a competitor if properly used.
Now, in keeping with this "useful on higher, useless on lower" theme, I find on Emperor axe rushing is a huge resource hog with no assurance of success. On Immortal it is at best ill advised, and on Deity, it's a good way to see if you get a better map next time. This strips axes of a lot of their offensive glory - and that being the case, the dog soldier all of the sudden starts to fill an almost entirely new role. The one real weakness, for periods, in the protective Civ's military ability is the archer pre-longbow period, when regular archers just don't have the stuff to be really safe defensive units or primary attacking units. The big hitters of that period give them a rough time - axemen and swordsmen, mainly, and heaven forbid someone have Praets. Dog Soldiers almost completely fill in this weakness, while keeping with SB's "something from nothing" theme.
I find, on Immortal +, I can feel really safe with Sitting Bull with no resources whatsoever. When the CPU expands like mad, sometimes being able to say "Ok, I won't jump for that copper" will make the difference between a strong early economy and a sluggish one. The dog soldier gives you that luxury.
Yes, it's not the attacking unit an axemen is - but, if you're axe rushing on Immortal +, you either have an absolutely amazing start or you're just nuts. The dog soldier, on the other hand, fills a noticeable gap in SB's armor, and really gives you a great deal of luxury to say "I don't really care about military resources." For anyone else, it's pretty so-so, I admit... But SB isn't anyone else - he's the guy which lets you do something with nothing. Dog soldiers work in that role very well.
Oh, and...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265560&highlight=Stasis+Rush
Dog soldiers rock for the stasis rush, which works well right up to Immortal
And one last note... I understand why they aren't the favorite, and I understand why people don't go nuts for them. I'm just suggesting, they do work very well in certain roles, and they are an excellent unit for synergy for the resourceless, protective monster that is SB.
The SEAL is not just a promoted marine (with March). It also gets an additional 1-2 first strikes. SEALs are a lot better than marines mainly for the extra first strikes IMO.
I find this reasoning interesting. If you can build more workers it becomes irrelevant? Isn't the fact you need fewer workers the whole point? If your first 3 workers do the same job that another civ's first 4 would do, that is an advantage right there because the Indian civ could have built something else with those hammers and food.
A fun way to use fast workers is as explorers. They are the fastest unit available for mapping out open border territory, and in the early game you can use them very safely even in jungles/forests because you can always run away from a barb or animal. Only wolves can cause problems but these are pretty rare.
Also, the worker is more powerful at faster game speeds. If it takes 10(?) turns to chop a forest at Marathon, saving 1 worker turn is not that great compared with saving a turn off a 3-turn chop at Quick speed.
Needing fewer workers overall means you pay less maintenance in the long run, possibly saving a couple GPT. I tend to get by with way less than the recommended 2 workers per city (more like about 1.2 per city usually) because I micro them to death, and with fast workers even fewer are needed.
