Worst Wonder Ever!

[EquinoxOmega]

I chosed the Colossus and King Richard's because they are completly unimportant. They only have a local effect and run out before you can really use them.

 

[Conrino]

Conrino: Re: your tag line...

"At the general election of 1895 it was clear that there were divisions as to what issue the Liberals were fighting for, and the effect of Sir William Harcourt's abortive Local Veto Bill on the election was seen not only in his defeat at Derby, which gave the signal for the Liberal rout, but in the set-back it gave to temperance legislation." (from 1911 E.B.)

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU


I thought I'd never find the answer. I knew it had something to do with late 19th century british politics but no clue what it's actual true meaning was.

 

[Apex Reborne]

I have to agree Titi, exept that generaly when palying on maps it is hard to find a city more than 16 squares from an ocean tile. The map generator allways produces maps whith water spread across through the entire map. anyway if the event that you have described has occured than there is no other way to explain it!

And to everyone else having to use sneak attacks is a very risky business, especialy if you are not a superpower (at the point in time) because you need a spotless reputation to spare you time through negotiations! anyways I stand by the U.N. being worst wonder.


WALK SOFTLY, AND CARRY A BIG STICK.- Winston Churchill

 

[Theben]

WALK SOFTLY, AND CARRY A BIG STICK was originally said by Theodore Roosevelt.

 

[Conrino]

Ya. Wondering about your sanity for a while there. Winston Churchill did say however "Follow the broomstick to the purple toaster, for there you will find The Grail"

 

[pakopako]

Sorry for bumping the topic, but I have not read any replies defending Marco Polo's Embassy. Of those listed, I use it the least and find it to be one of the most useless WONDERs in the game (right behind EIFFEL TOWER and in front of MANHATTEN PROJECT).

The Pyramids are a cheap food source (eventually).
The Colossus can increase science exponentially in the right city for a very long time (especially if combined with other WONDERs like the Observatory).
I've used the Lighthouse to make use of my Triremes and cut off all naval research.
The Great Library is actually useful if you play the underdog in a crowded game.
Shakespeare's Theater is used by the AI in front-line cities to create an un-bribable democratic army with no unhappiness consequence.
Even the Great Wall offers an expensive short-term solution to wall-less cities.

Granted, Marco Polo's Embassy is cheap, but what does it do to help you?

-=PakoPako=-

 

[Ace]

MP gives you an embassy with all the other civs. This lets you make contact with all of them early on. You can trade advances, trade maps (if you both have map making) and beg/demand gifts from them. Besides finding out their locations, it lets you know how big each civ is and what advance they are building as well as any wonders they may be building and what city is building the wonders.

 

[Weird_bug]

Manhattan Project. I would never build a nuke. Meh, i never am patient enough to get there!

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Sorry for bumping the topic, but I have not read any replies defending Marco Polo's Embassy. Of those listed, I use it the least and find it to be one of the most useless WONDERs in the game (right behind EIFFEL TOWER and in front of MANHATTEN PROJECT).

The Pyramids are a cheap food source (eventually).
The Colossus can increase science exponentially in the right city for a very long time (especially if combined with other WONDERs like the Observatory).
I've used the Lighthouse to make use of my Triremes and cut off all naval research.
The Great Library is actually useful if you play the underdog in a crowded game.
Shakespeare's Theater is used by the AI in front-line cities to create an un-bribable democratic army with no unhappiness consequence.
Even the Great Wall offers an expensive short-term solution to wall-less cities.

Granted, Marco Polo's Embassy is cheap, but what does it do to help you?

-=PakoPako=-

Once you learn how to use diplomacy in your favor, you will realize that Marco Polo is one of the most powerful wonders available. It is particularly valuable in OCC and early landing type games where advancing up the technology tree quickly is at a premium, but is often very valuable in early conquest games as well. You can gain technologies without researching them, you can gain valuable recon data through map exchanges, and you can gain oodles of cash by either staying small and asking allies for gifts, or by becoming large and powerful and demanding tribute. And it barely costs more than the 6 dips it would take to get the embassies yourself and you don't have to build the boats to deliver them or spend the time to find the other civs and send the dips there.

 

[Weird_bug]

The correct answer is of course the Great Library

"Tim the Enchanter is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong

 

[Ace]

Actually, Tim is correct. In terms of which wonder does you the least good and/or the most harm, the GL tops the list given in this poll. As an experienced "Human" player, you should always be in the lead in the tech race, hence, you won't get any/many techs from the GL. So GL does not really "help" you. And, as mentioned previously, the GL can hurt your early tech plan by giving you unwanted advances which slow your research. This is expecially harmful in the early going when you are trying to get out of Despotism as quickly as possible. The only "good" thing about the GL, IMHO, is its value as a decoy. The AI likes to build it, and if it is wasting time (and shields) on it while I am building the Colossus or HG, that is fine with me.

As a general comment on this thread, the wonder "ratings" will change drastically depending on what "style" of play you use. As EU mentioned, in OCC many of the wonders, like JSB, that effect all cities, are not of much use. On the other hand, if you like to build large, sprawling empires with lots of cities, JSB is mandatory. Likewise, if you are building a superscience city, the Colossus, and Copes are essential. This is what makes Civ such a great game, this is something in it for everyone!

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

"Tim the Enchanter is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong

Oh wow. For a minute there, I saw the icon and did not look at the user name. I was very distraught that Andu was so vehemently disagreeing with me, but then I looked and saw it was someone else who had grabbed the same avatar.

Phew.

 

[tomsnowman123]

I have to go along with the crowd and say lighthouse. I don't think I ever build it any more.

 

[Nick Garai]

The Great Wall is totally usefull until you get Metallurgy. It is one of the best wonders to get early in the game. Every city getting the benefits of a city wall to add to defensive bonus? That is one of th best wonders to get. THe Grat Library is also a great wonder to get because once you've got it you can maximize your taxes and not worry ab out researching. With that you can buy the other wonders and keep up with the research tree.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

WALK SOFTLY, AND CARRY A BIG STICK was originally said by Theodore Roosevelt.

TF is my hero, but I believe the correct quote would be "SPEAK softly, and carry a big stick"

On topic, though, I find JS Bach's Cathedral to be the least useful. I always always have Michaelangelo's Cathedral, so I don't need Bach's. It only gives two happy's, so I don't really care about it, if I need it that bad I'll just take it, but it's definitely less than essential to my machievallian plans

I don't see why so many people have voted for King Richard's Crusade, its a factory without the pollution! I love it, whatever city gets it automatically becomes the wonder factory until industrialization.

 

[Ace]

The Lighthouse is an iffy type wonder. If you need to get off your home continent/island early in the game, you can usually build the lighthouse before caravels are available, and even then, it adds movement to your ships. If your on a big land mass, no, its not worth building.

JSB is very important at diety level in democracy, especially if your fighting a war. Those two extra happy people are very important for that, and if your trying to grow your civ by celebrating. JSB has to be in the top 5 wonders, at least.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

TF is my hero, but I believe the correct quote would be "SPEAK softly, and carry a big stick"

On topic, though, I find JS Bach's Cathedral to be the least useful. I always always have Michaelangelo's Cathedral, so I don't need Bach's. It only gives two happy's, so I don't really care about it, if I need it that bad I'll just take it, but it's definitely less than essential to my machievallian plans

I don't see why so many people have voted for King Richard's Crusade, its a factory without the pollution! I love it, whatever city gets it automatically becomes the wonder factory until industrialization.

Yes, it was speak softly. I thought about correcting that as well, but those posts are a year and a half old. Good to see someone else getting it right.

To expand on what Ace said, the reason Bach is so important for war in democracy has to do with the order in which happiness is evaluated. Improvements are applied before units in the field, whereas Wonders are applied after. Since Mike's is treated as a cathedral in every city it's benefits come with the improvements. Therefore, you can get as happy as you want with mikes, but if you have 1 unit in the field, you will get a red face (no celebration, etc). Bach is treated as a wonder, so it is applied after the units in the field. Bach is crucial to keeping your cities celebrating (i.e., growing wildly) or at least content when your are fighting war in democracy, and it is a benefit that can be achieved NO OTHER WAY than through that wonder. Nothing else in the game can do what it does. If you don't play much late game democracy, it doesn't come into play much other than a couple extra happies or a couple tithes in fundy. But if you like to have the huge economy of democracy and still fight a war, it's really valuable.

I don't think KRC is one of the worst - it certainly has some value (whether it is worth the cost is arguable however). Most of us use caravans from multiple cities to build wonders, so the value of giving a production boost to one of those cities for wonder production is minimized. Also, you have to get engineering early and delay industrialization a while for it to last long enough just to make back the 300 sheilds you put into it. That's a divergence from the usual tech paths people tend to follow. Furthermore, high production cities are not conducive to the type of food and trade needed for max growth that allows you to get the most out of a one-city wonder. It's not the worst, but I certainly don't put it very high on my list, either.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

The Great Wall is totally usefull until you get Metallurgy. It is one of the best wonders to get early in the game. Every city getting the benefits of a city wall to add to defensive bonus? That is one of th best wonders to get. THe Grat Library is also a great wonder to get because once you've got it you can maximize your taxes and not worry ab out researching. With that you can buy the other wonders and keep up with the research tree.

The value of the great wall depends completely on the strategy of defending your cities with defensive units. Something I almost never do anymore. I'll build it every once in a while depending on how a conquest game is going, but not often.

I will stand by my claims regarding the GL. GL is 50% more expensive than MPE, which lets you get desired techs from other civs even if only one other civ has what you want.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

...King Richard's Crusade, its a factory without the pollution! I love it, whatever city gets it automatically becomes the wonder factory until industrialization.

Pollution is caused by two factors before Automobile: shields produced in the city and the number of your techs. After automobile the population of the city becomes another factor. King Richard is as capable of producing pollution as any factory and I have seen it happen numerous times.

Also, you have to get engineering early and delay industrialization a while for it to last long enough just to make back the 300 sheilds you put into it. That's a divergence from the usual tech paths people tend to follow. Furthermore, high production cities are not conducive to the type of food and trade needed for max growth that allows you to get the most out of a one-city wonder. It's not the worst, but I certainly don't put it very high on my list, either.

While I agree with you that it is not very high on my list of wonders, I disagree with some of your reasons. I agree that getting Engineering early is a hassle because of its prereqs of Horsebackriding and Wheel which are not useful. (Its other prereq is Construction which is needed for Aqueducts and unless you are playing extreme ICS is very useful.) Delaying Industrialization a while, however, is at the expense of pursuing other techs which I find more valuable anyways: Democracy, Explosives, Theology, Electricity (Destroyers), and Refrigeration.
Finally, the fact that high production cities are not conducive to food and trade production is completely besides the point. Unlike Colossus that gives you an extra arrow where one already exists, King Richard gives you an extra shield everywhere in the city radius. When I do build it, it goes in my highest population city which is typically my science city.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Pollution is caused by two factors before Automobile: shields produced in the city and the number of your techs. After automobile the population of the city becomes another factor. King Richard is as capable of producing pollution as any factory and I have seen it happen numerous times.


While I agree with you that it is not very high on my list of wonders, I disagree with some of your reasons. I agree that getting Engineering early is a hassle because of its prereqs of Horsebackriding and Wheel which are not useful. (Its other prereq is Construction which is needed for Aqueducts and unless you are playing extreme ICS is very useful.) Delaying Industrialization a while, however, is at the expense of pursuing other techs which I find more valuable anyways: Democracy, Explosives, Theology, Electricity (Destroyers), and Refrigeration.
Finally, the fact that high production cities are not conducive to food and trade production is completely besides the point. Unlike Colossus that gives you an extra arrow where one already exists, King Richard gives you an extra shield everywhere in the city radius. When I do build it, it goes in my highest population city which is typically my science city.

good point on industrialization. Depending on the type of game I often don't rush it either. (Usually it's because I'm delaying RR to get bigger delivery bonuses) However, I usually have little desire for wheel/eng that early.

Also, good point on the growth thing. My bad. However, If I'm putting it in my SSC, There are such other priorities for the 'important' SSC techs and wonders it's hard to imagine going for it early paying off. Hmmmm...Maybe if you get Wheel from a hut early on and construction from MPE or something...

How about this paradox - if you have an SSC up and growing that early, you'll research so fast, that you'll get to industrialization that much quicker making it hard to pay for itself, right