Worst Wonder Ever!

[Ace]

IMHO, KRC is a nice to have wonder if nothing better is available. It does add 20 points to your score and, assuming a size 10 city, on average, it will take only 30 turns to get your 300 shields back. I tend to look at 2 other factors here, 1: let the AI build it, while I build a more desirable wonder, or 2: occasionally, you will get HBR and/or the Wheel as starting techs which can make an early push for Explosives very attractive.

At the lower levels, where happiness is not as big a problem as on Diety, going for Engineering vs Monotheism is a better choice. You will get the extra shields for more turns to add to other wonders.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I have never made King Richard a top priority, it is just not that good. Even when you are on a tiny island, there are more important priorities. But if attempted early enough it is certainly worth it.

Come to think of it, let us apply Peaster's return on investment theory here. I really like his theory and I am trying to apply all over the place.

A good rate of return is 5%. Better is wonderful; a little less acceptable. For investing 300 shields we expect 15 shields per turn. This happens when the city is size 14. The maximum return is 21 or 7%. I would say the minimum acceptable is 3% which is 9 shields at city size 8. Thus, I would say if your city is at or above size 8, has an aqueduct, and there are no other pressing needs build King Richard.

There are two caveats. Bigger one is the fact that this wonder expires. In a space ship game or modern warfare game, if you average out the investment over the remaining turns left in the game it is quite unlikely that a maximum rate of return of 7% amounts to much.

The other caveat is that if you do not plan ahead you will surely miss this one for two reasons. One is that it is quite popular with the AI, the other is that it comes at a time when there are so many other choices for what to build.

 

[starlifter]

Tim the Enchanter is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong

Correction... you obviously meant to say "Tim the Enchanter is right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right right"

Of that list, I agree with Tim that the Great Library is the worst, in an all-out random map standard game.

The actual worst is the Awful Tower (Eiffel).

A close second is what Old n Slow said... the Oracle, which more than half the time I can make obsolete before an AI can even start it (at diety level).

The Manhattan Project is a moot point, because I doubt most players who swim in the golden river of Democracy allow an AI to get much past Industrialization before its lights out. Hence, MP is worth 20 points, and the human builds a single nuke for the rednecking influence it has on the AI in diplomacy.

Another worst on the list (for me) is Lighthouse, unless I use La Fayette's Super Ironclad strategy. I rarely will trade with triremes, and hence need no open-water navigation which the lighthouse confers. The vet status might be marginally useful for a narrow time span before Leonardo's starts doing its inexorable work.

 

[starlifter]

by Starlifter, Jun 24, 2001 (from here):
...
As a sidenote: with King Richard's Crusade (KRC) and a large Republic city, the KRC is a real bargain and can build all the wonders thru Industrialization, plus a full slate of city improvements. Since KRC will add about 20 shields per turn for typically at least 40 game turns (and often more like 80), you can see KRC is a real bargain. I typically get about 1200 to 1600 shields out of the KRC wonder, and maybe 2 or 3 pollution, max. Pollution costs 8 food and 4 shields (under republic) to clean up (plust transit time and lost production/trade), which is an excellent tradeoff for the ability to quickly obtain all the wonders in the game, during that era.
...
9. King Richard's Crusade is an excellent bargain if you have the right city, but is not a dire wonder to omit. Properly used, it will easily build you 4 or 5 wonders in return, and ensure its home city has all possible improvements. Best of all, there is no support cost... factory and offshore paltform, plus the fact that pre-Industrialization is effectively a Mass Transit for you, which total 11 gold per turn in the post-industrialization world. Over 80 game turns, this is an 880 gold value!
...

King Richard's Crusade is an uber-powerful bargain, properly used. Improperly implemented by a good Republic player (or properly implemented by a slow/poor Republic player) it is usually mediocre. Improperly implemented by a profoundly slow science civ, and it is often actually fairly valuable.

 

[Millman]

Can't we all agree which is the worst one overall?

Any Wonder you can start building is good as long as the goal is to deny your opponent it.

I should be the colossus overall. In the beginning when you build it, your city is usually too small to completely benefit from it, even at any difficulty level.

Any level lower than prince, it is too easy for people who are serious about the game. I have never played lower than King level so I don't know how often you can build Wonders to keep up. I can usually get most of them on Emperor skipping the colossus to build the pyramids or garden instead. It feels like the Colossus was put in there for the lucky number seven wonders of ancient times.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Can't we all agree which is the worst one overall?

No we cannot, because different people use different strategies. Not to mention that the map can affect the situation dramatically as well.

I should be the colossus overall.

For some of us, Colossus is the best wonder.

 

[starlifter]

Any level lower than prince,

Good point. Civ 2 is played by many people, at lots of different levels. I personally always take the Diety context, but that short-changes the other levels.

At lower levels, I will say that Michelangelos Chapel & JS Bach Michelangelos do not have the importance they have at Diety (where they are the "best" 2 in my opinion). So thinking in reverse, about the relative low value of the "worst" wonder at say Prince or Warlord... hmmm.... The Eiffel Tower wins that dubious honor. Again.

I should be the colossus overall.

Well, I will strongly disagree with that. I do not put Colossus at the top of the 28 wonders, but at lower levels of play, I'd put Great Library, Oracle, and even Lighthouse lower than Colossus. Even if you don't trade at all, Colossus will more than pay for itself... it does create worth, even if misused... something the Eiffel cannot do, & Oracle "normally" will not do at low levels. Possibly I'd even put MC below Colossus, at the lowest skill level, since MC could not "help" me in early and mid game like it must do at Diety.

 

[Millman]

So there's no way of knowing which one is the worst then?

 

[Ace]

The Eiffel Tower is the very worst wonder.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

So there's no way of knowing which one is the worst then?

There is if you fix your strategy and your map, otherwise not.

The Eiffel Tower is the very worst wonder.

If you are playing MGE it is the least useful wonder but even then it beats Manhattan if you are pursuing a peaceful strategy. With a peaceful strategy Manhattan has no positive effect but some negative effect. No other wonder has a negative effect. In that regard, Manhattan and Apollo are very strange wonders; their effect is global and not restricted to the civilization that built them.

If you are not playing MGE and are pursuing a mostly (and not necessarily entirely) peaceful strategy then Eiffel is actually marginally useful. I have built it once or twice in OCC games. I am not sure if I have ever built it in non-OCC games.

 

[civdood]

With a peaceful strategy Manhattan has no positive effect but some negative effect.

this cannot be ture! manhattan=peace on earth, or get a bomb! and then we have peace for all, or get another bomb and soon we have peice!!

wonderful=mushrooms over cities!! and yellow paragroup will snap the city from greedy enemy, and all will be piece again. how else to build big strong bomb? tell me if not lovely manhattan. civdood think it best if enemy make manhattan to save time but republic so stong that it not matter execept democrats not like it as much -a pity.

manhattan so so so good. cannot be bad, so bad to make it on this terrible list that has worst as goal.

sory for my English, but my friends not here to help me write better but you must understand manhattan is so good it cannot be worse and the mighty bomb can only flow from this peace maker of high.

 

[Ace]

In the strictist sense, Manhatten Project maybe negative, but, a good human player will never let the AI get that far along the tech tree, so the negative factor should never be a factor. In fact, one could say it does have a positive effect because when you build it and than build a single nuke missile, the AIs defer to a member if the nuke club. But, its greatest use, is as the last unbuilt wonder one can use when building SS parts. Start Manhatten, add the required # of freight, change to SS part of your choice, and presto, a quick part for your ship.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

In the strictist sense, Manhatten Project maybe negative, but, a good human player will never let the AI get that far along the tech tree, so the negative factor should never be a factor.

Unless you are playing the purple civ, what you are suggesting heavily restricts tech gifting after you yourself discover the tech needed to make a nuclear missile.

But, its greatest use, is as the last unbuilt wonder one can use when building SS parts. Start Manhatten, add the required # of freight, change to SS part of your choice, and presto, a quick part for your ship.

Any wonder would do for that. In fact old obsolete 200 and 300 shields ones are better since you also have the option of rush buying.

 

[ElephantU]

I like Oracle for my Spaceship Wonder because it is 300 shields, and I've deliberately taken an AI city that has started to build it when all else are taken. Playing a good competitive OCC game I value Eiffel Tower in the late game if I sense the AI getting uppity. Colossus is the core of any good Super Trade City, whether OCC or not. Actually it was on the original list of "Seven Wonders of the Ancient World", but only four of those made it into Civ (Pyr, HG, Col, LH).

 

[Ace]

Unless you are playing the purple civ, what you are suggesting heavily restricts tech gifting after you yourself discover the tech needed to make a nuclear missile. .

If you have to use tech gifting after you have the Manhatten Project available, you are doing something wrong. And, AFAIK, you cannot tech gift FT.

Any wonder would do for that. In fact old obsolete 200 and 300 shields ones are better since you also have the option of rush buying.

Granted. But the Manhatten Project is the one wonder that you do not want to build until the very end of the game. In fact, I tend to leave that one until my SS is a couple of turns from Alpha Centari, and than rush it.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

But the Manhatten Project is the one wonder that you do not want to build until the very end of the game. In fact, I tend to leave that one until my SS is a couple of turns from Alpha Centari, and than rush it.

Amen. So do I. And why may I ask you build it right before the end of the game? Obviously you do this for score only and if there are obsolete wonders you probably build them before Manhattan. I do the same. Your own behavior is best proof that this wonder is worse than useless (in a peaceful game); it is downright dangerous.

 

[Ace]

Amen. So do I. And why may I ask you build it right before the end of the game? Obviously you do this for score only and if there are obsolete wonders you probably build them before Manhattan. I do the same. Your own behavior is best proof that this wonder is worse than useless (in a peaceful game); it is downright dangerous.

Except that once you join the Nuke Club, the AI tends to treat you with a tad more respect, even in MGE. However, I was looking at the big picture, that is that in some circumstances, the Manhattan Project does add to your military might, whereas, the Tower only helps your reputation by 25 points if you lose your spotless rep.

While I will do my best to prevent the AI from getting access to the nuke missiles, I still think the Tower is the most worthless wonder.

 

[Peaster]

There is [a worst wonder] if you fix your strategy and your map, otherwise not.

I completely agree with this. Fortunately, Civ2 games vary quite a lot, and almost every rule of thumb has exceptions.

Speaking for early conquest players: The Lighthouse is VERY valuable on most maps, probably among the top 2-3 Wonders [with MPE and maybe HG]. I consider the GL to be worse than useless (especially if I have MPE). The Eiffel seems pretty worthless too. Possible exception - in games with restarts on, sometimes I have to sneak attack so often that my rep hits rock bottom, and it becomes impossible to get AI maps anymore. KRC is certainly not worthless, but it is not worth its cost. But we usually never even have the option to build Wonders like Eiffel or KRC, etc, which come "late" in the tech tree.

For early landing [not my specialty]: AFAIK there are 2 main approaches; the solo strategy (the ELG) involving modest growth and the SlowThinker strategy (with ICS). IMO with the latter strategy, the value of most Wonders is similar to that in early conquest games. Again, the Lighthouse can be very valuable for early trade. But science becomes more important [promoting Colossus, etc] and with an SSC the big city wonders [eg KRC] make more sense.

For high score games [very much not my specialty]: AFAIK Civ2 time doesn't matter much and "the force of interest" is almost negligible. So, for example, building KRC would make perfect sense in any productive city.

All told, I'd say Eiffel, GL and Manhattan are the worst overall.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I consider the GL to be worse than useless.

Now that's what I like to see!

 

[Dong2Long]

Where is eiffel tower, which is the wost in all of this game! It is really really bad, if a human views it. Bye bye great library, you made the list.