Worst Wonder

[EmperorGandalf]

I find that the statue of liberty is not very useful. of course i like to be in democracy, which makes me feel its near useless (i dont get it: i just cant be agressive even when i try. Therefore, best gov for me:democracy) By the time one can build statue, the only govs left to be researched are communism and fundamentalism, and they could have already been discovered too.
notes on other wonders listed:
i have used GL ocasionally, mostly now on higher levels (king-emperor. im trying deity, but i dont have literacy yet) it can be useful (all these wonders can be useful to some degree)
Darwin:those techs can be useful. sure its not the best wonder, but oh well
Tower:i agree not too useful, but those AI sure grow to hate me regardless of what i do, whether im strong or weak, or have good or bad reputation. ive found tower helps a tiny bit
manhattan:although i have recently rid myself of the urge to launch nukes, they can be useful to conquer powerful enemies before invention of laser. one of my favorite combos:nukes, paratroopers, and engineers!
oracle: does expire early, but helps a little before it does, especially in those unhappyful higher levels
lighthouse:ive never really used it (it expires, and i dont build huge fleets) but im sure it has its uses.
All the wonders arent completely useless, even if they were, at least they're points!

 

[Cataphract887]

The hanging gardens is really underestimated,imho the strongest wonder,by a long ways. the ability to launch into a major ICS and really start cranking is very strong. by the time you get to railroad,your turn advantage will be very good,and you could have gotten some other wonders along the way faster than your opponent,too.

 

[Cataphract887]

[that was in comment to [19. Hanging Gardens (now this is one I think expires too early.)] but my edit button dosnt work]

 

[carn]

The Great Library is the worst wonder, in my opinion. Although I don't generally build any of those wonders unless an enemy AI is making it and I can't stop him, or I am at the end of the game going for score, the Great Library is the only wonder which could produce a potentially NEGATIVE effect! If you have played this game quite extensively you should notice that as you get more civ advances, your rate slows down (at least earlier in the game). Since there are clearly better ways to path your research than others, the *last* thing you would want to do is get a potentially worthless advance that would slow you acquiring a truely valuable advance.

I'm curious, i understand you're argument, but i cannot say it makes the GL worst, since afaik there are no dead end techs eearly on except theology(which one steals/researches anyway for JSBC), even feudalism leads to knights, which lead to cavalry, which is necessary for some further stuff, so just the order in which you get techs is changed, but i think that is it worth considering you get 6+ techs for free.

And what is wrong with building the GL and then setting gold tax to highest value, use the money to build buildings very quickly and set science to 0 when number of cities causes happiness problems?

Carn

 

[carn]

And why do some people think the statue of liberty useless?

I like it, since it allows access to fundamentalism 8 techs earlier and if you have great library, you do not research much anyway. But the advantages of fundamentalism, no corruption, no unhappiness and 10 free units, allow a real explsive expansion, everything is settled even polar ice without bonus resources and only water tiles - with Mike'schapel, tempel, market and JSBC it quickly produces the money spent to built the stuff.

So what's wrong with Statue?

Carn

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

And why do some people think the statue of liberty useless?

I like it, since it allows access to fundamentalism 8 techs earlier and if you have great library, you do not research much anyway. But the advantages of fundamentalism, no corruption, no unhappiness and 10 free units, allow a real explsive expansion, everything is settled even polar ice without bonus resources and only water tiles - with Mike'schapel, tempel, market and JSBC it quickly produces the money spent to built the stuff.

So what's wrong with Statue?

Carn

Because with Mike and Bach, plus a Temple and Market in every city you can earn 5-10 times as much money in a big fat Democracy, celebrating to keep your cities growing while you are popping settlers all over the map to expand at least as much as you could in Fundy.

 

[carn]

Because with Mike and Bach, plus a Temple and Market in every city you can earn 5-10 times as much money in a big fat Democracy, celebrating to keep your cities growing while you are popping settlers all over the map to expand at least as much as you could in Fundy.

How can you stay celebrating with a lot of cities?
IIRC each additional city increased unhappiness in some other city up to the point where every citizen is a black rebel, needing 4 luxuries to be content and 6 to be happy.
One gets 10 free happiness from buildings/wonders, that means in a size 12 city 38 luxuries are needed. 12 cititizens produce in democracy about 24 commerce, which means with market and bank this makes 48 gold/luxuries, so just 10 are left for gold and a further 5(i think) are eaten up for cathedral and bank upkeep. Leaves 5 gold plus trade routes.
Doesn't seem to be a money factory, unless i misjudge the worth of trade routes, prior canalisation, which afaik is also a good 10 techs or so behind democracy.

With canalisation there is no pop limit and only the first 20 can get unhappy, so 80 luxuries are needed, 100 for celebration, -20 for buildings. Assuming size 25, not yet tech for increased farm output, one gets 40 commerce+10 from specialist+trade routes. Ignoring trade routes, thats 100 after buildings, leaving 20 for upkeep, means 15 after upkeep.
Doesn't sound like a lot of money, even if you skip celebrations, you still end up with just 35.

You employ this tactic after all the +50% tech improvements(supermarket, railroad and motorways)?

Then this comes a lot later than democracy, i have to check whether my fundies by that time have left a spot on the poles.

Carn

 

[The Judge]

Because with Mike and Bach, plus a Temple and Market in every city you can earn 5-10 times as much money in a big fat Democracy, celebrating to keep your cities growing while you are popping settlers all over the map to expand at least as much as you could in Fundy.

I love the Power Democracy too, however I always build the Statue of Liberty (if poss) because you can instantly switch governments. When making the switch from Republic to Democracy (or whatever) it can often take a few turns without this Wonder and while this is happening you could have cities in disorder so they are not producing anything and if the cities are large they could also begin starving (because no-one is working on the land) and so decreasing in size. Also it can be very handy if a hostile civ (like those damn Mongols) attack as you can instantly change from Power Democracy to Bloodthirsty Fundimentalist!!

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

A couple things:

1) Sewer (I think that's what Canalisation translates to) can be available before democracy depending on your tech priorities. If you're planning to grow, you can make it a priority.

2) Black hatted dudes are not a problem, they are your friend. It is probably a bug in the system, but the black hats only take 2 luxuries to take them directly to happy. It is the same problem as the Hanging Gardens bug. Once your civ gets big, it becomes ridiculously easy to get them celebrating.

3) Because celebration adds population so quickly, you can do it in quick bursts and not use it all the time, leaving many other turns for much higher tax (gold) rates.

4) Yes you are underestimating the value of good trade routes and you are also underestimating the base trade that a good democracy city can get. I don't have any references with me, but I'd say with a moderate amount of water (ocean or roaded rivers) a size 12 city should be able to support at least 30 arrows base trade. Trade specials increase this further. Trade routes to another decent city at this point should be about +5 to +9 so that's another 15-27 trade added on. Let's say that's around 50 trade. Now add a market and 40% luxuries (remember - just for a few turns for a burst of civ-wide celebration) will give you 30 cups. Even without black hats, Only 24 are neeeded to make 6 Reds happy. (That still leaves 30 arrows to divide between gold and science.) The temple, bach and mikes should keep the rest content. As you grow, the trouble is not getting enough cups to get half your people happy, it's having enough improvements to keep the rest content.

5) You don't factor in the fact that by delivering camels wisely, these heavy-trade cities will pay handsome delivery bonuses of gold and science. If you use this properly, it can drive most of your science, meaning even more taxes can be dedicated to Gold, or you can use it to fund your operations and set taxes at a deficit and still make money.

Keep in mind, I don't think the Statue is worthless - not having to wait for oedo years can come in handy in other situations.

 

[carn]

2) Black hatted dudes are not a problem, they are your friend. It is probably a bug in the system, but the black hats only take 2 luxuries to take them directly to happy. It is the same problem as the Hanging Gardens bug. Once your civ gets big, it becomes ridiculously easy to get them celebrating.

Ok, that makes a difference, i didn't know that, thought i could trust the official information, thanks.
Then of course democracies can spam the world with cities as well as fundies with the advantage of more gold and far more science.
What Hanging Gardens bug?

Carn

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

What Hanging Gardens bug?
Carn

Again, whether it's a "bug" is open for debate, but it works on the same mechanism. Hanging gardens will make a content person happy. It will make an unhappy person content. It has essentially the same effect of adding two luxury cups. However, if you expand rapidly (particularly in deity where you start out unhappier), and get to the 'double-unhappy' or black hatted dudes, HG will take them directly to happy. This is one of the things that makes ICS so powerful. You actually reach a point where you are better off removing garrison troops from these cities because the garrison moves the citizen from black to red, so HG only makes them content, whereas with no garrison they remain black and HG takes them all the way to happy.

 

[Duran]

I hate the great libary... i does nothing for me... yet i still build it... why? so other civs wont get my tech... i always have a better science rating then every one else... so it doesent help me any other then keeping it out of other civs hands.

 

[Kessey]

I used to love the Manhattan Project until I got in a nuclear war that accomplished nothing. I prefer fighting with spies and helecopters.

The GL works really well for me. I used to ignore advances that made people happy until I took over an enemy city miles from home. Now Shakespeare can come into our town anytime!

Jay

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I hate the great libary... i does nothing for me... yet i still build it... why? so other civs wont get my tech...

300 shields early in the game is a hefty price to pay for that. I try to make it expire as quickly as possible instead.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I hate the great libary... i does nothing for me... yet i still build it... why? so other civs wont get my tech... i always have a better science rating then every one else... so it doesent help me any other then keeping it out of other civs hands.

Funny. Quite frequently I find myself building Marco Polo and using it to give my techs to the other civs.

 

[molesworth]

I don't understand all the antipathy towards Eiffel Tower. Sometimes it can be useful if not essential depending on the game you are playing. In a recent game, for example, I allied with the Romans early on who proceeded to build a city slap bang between two of mine on a continent that was otherwise exclusively mine! I had to cancel the alliance and then declare war on them to remove their blasted city! This severely damaged my reputation so I needed ET to restore it and make other civs approachable again for tech/map sharing and to prevent them attacking me too much.

WinstonJen says you get no points for having a spotless rep. Is this in the classic game or according to the scoring rules of GOTM?

Used to always try for Great Library until I found out about Key Civs and the detrimental effects to your research efforts of getting too far ahead of the Key Civ. Also Great Library can prevent you from channeling research towards techs you really want - another disadvantage. Interesting about what duke o' york says about lighthouse - I didn't realise it gave veteran ironclads.

Summary ET good for maintaining diplomatic relations. My worst wonder is Oracle - expires too quickly. Or Hanging Gardens - have never built it on higher difficulty levels.

 

[Ace]

The trick is to never damage your reputation in the first place, that makes the Eiffel Tower unnecessary. You can always Bribe a city (except if the AI is in democracy). IF your allied with the AI civ, you can still bribe the city, you just have to pay double to avoid an "incident", but its cheaper than damaging your rep by breaking the alliance.

 

[molesworth]

Granted - I still think ET has it uses - i.e: you can pursue aggressive foreign policy throughout rest of game in the knowledge that your rep will be repaired. Also bribing an allied city not always an option if you need the cash to win a wonder building race!

 

[Ace]

The goal is not to have a spotless rep at game's end, but to maintain one throughout the game, since it effects how the AIs react to your diplomatic overtures.

With regard to an allied civ's city you want removed, you could also tempt the ally to break the alliance. Try parking a caravan on a major road in its territory, or even a settler. Many times, the AI just cannot resist sneak attacking a nuisance unit, especially a harmless one, in its territory.

 

[Peaster]

Reputation does not count into scoring - not by the game, and not in GOTMs. I like to stay "spotless", but will sneak attack if I have to. This has very rarely prevented AI map trades, etc. (it happened once when I sank to "atrocious" and continued to sneak attack against an endless stream of respawned civs). But I play for EC; maybe rep matters more in longer games or landing games.

Molesworth "Or Hanging Gardens - have never built it on higher difficulty levels." Did you mean "lower difficulty" ? In fast-growth deity level games, HG is essentially required when you get past 10-12 cities (in monarchy, before Mike's). So, I mostly agree with post #122.