Worst Wonder

[cbmclean]

I had never treied the "super iron clad strategy." Thats a good idea! However, if you're a peacemonger, the lighthouse is still pretty useless

 

[Darth Civ]

If you build the manhattan project you can kiss your civ goodbye

 

[Terrapin]

Manhattan Project. Who cares? As close as I can tell, everyone, not just the player who developes MP can build nuclear missile units...but not until you get rocketry.

Great Library bashers: In a science oriented Republic/Democracy strategy, build up the economic and and scholarly (forget the correct name) branches of the tech tree. Ignore military and applied (except construction). The Library will provide those other technologies. Meanwhile, you race ahead and get all the best Renaissance techs and Wonders. You will pick up 6-10 free technologies before you (and only you) develope electricity. The Colossus, which gives extra trade arrows in just one city, can never match that kind of tech growth.

 

[Terrapin]

Also, for those saying GL wastes time by giving you techs you are already researching:

1. Getting a partially researched tech for free is not a "waste", it just means that you did not get the full benefit of the GL!

2. If you focus on moving rapidly up selected branches of the tech tree, this will not happen. You will be researching Invention Gunpowder and Economics, while the GL "backfills" techs like feudalism, warrior code and the wheel. The wheel in particular, is useless (unless you have a Chariot fetish! Maybe you really like gladiator movies!) when invented, but necessary as a pre-requisite for automobile.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

First, on the idea that colossus "can never match" 6-10 techs. Most people GL bashing focus on Building an SSC, where the colossus makes a big difference (and the multiplication effect of the wonders and improvements makes this impact enormous in science). Furthermore, many people send caravans to the SSC which, because it has colossus, gives much higher trade routes in the other cities. The cumulative effect of colossus can be hundreds of beakers per turn.

The problem with the GL is not that it gives you techs you are researching. It gives you techs you don't want to research. The biggest issue with the GL is not how many techs it gives you, but WHEN it gives them to you. Remember that every tech you acquire during the game increases the cost (in beakers) of every tech you earn after that point. there is a very real cost of possessing unnecessary techs which can cumulatively add THOUSANDS of beakers to your requirments of reaching specific, highly desirable techs like astronomy, theory of gravity, sanitation, explosives, democracy etc. [This doesn't even consider the potential impact of the research penalty you will incur as you get ahead of your Key Civ with unwanted techs] Take your own comment about The Wheel: This tech is relatively useless in the early game. But if the GL gives it to you, along with warrior code and feudalism your beaker cost for developing the important techs goes through the roof. It takes far more turns to get to the things you really want for your SSC, increasing the risk that you don't get the tech in time to build the necessary wonders. If you don't have the GL, and focus on those specific target techs, you can have your civ cranking out so many beakers that it only takes a few turns to learn the Wheel, Warrior Code and other dreck that are necessary to advance along the lines that were not pursued earlier, but only when you need them.

Yet another factor is that some people avoid certain techs because of the impact they have. For example, I almost always avoid feudalism because I want to keep warriors around as long as possible for rushbuying the first row of shields. Losing that row increases the cost of rushbuying units which slows my ability to develop.

The issue with the GL is the ability to control the tech path you take. The GL puts you at the mercy of the idiotic AIs.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I agree with Tim. So much so that I'll even try to avoid capturing the GL from the AI before it expires.

 

[Ace]

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
I agree with Tim. So much so that I'll even try to avoid capturing the GL from the AI before it expires.

I, also, agree with Tim, but I wouldn't go so far as to pass up capturing an AI city just to avoid the GL. Especially since by the time you have the GL in your gunsights, you are probably well in the lead, techwise and won't get any "free" advances anyway. And the game has a "leveling" effect built into it. You can only go so far along a specific line of research until the game forces you to research techs you don't want at the moment by not letting you reseach the one you really want.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I put off Feudalism until the last possible moment. So, unless I know that all the civs have it and won't be trading it around, I don't touch the GL. Same goes for Civalry. I like to IPRB.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Terrapin
Great Library bashers: ... You will pick up 6-10 free technologies before you (and only you) develope electricity. The Colossus, which gives extra trade arrows in just one city, can never match that kind of tech growth.

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
First, on the idea that colossus "can never match" 6-10 techs. Most people GL bashing focus on Building an SSC, where the colossus makes a big difference (and the multiplication effect of the wonders and improvements makes this impact enormous in science). Furthermore, many people send caravans to the SSC which, because it has colossus, gives much higher trade routes in the other cities. The cumulative effect of colossus can be hundreds of beakers per turn.

And Tim is mentioning only the long-term direct benefit of the increase in beakers. Since every caravan delivered yields not only beakers but cash, if one reinvests these capital gains in building libraries and universities in cities with trade routes established with the Colossus city, then cumulative effect becomes even greater so that one can speak of a differece not of hundreds but thousands of beakers per turn. The GL can only give you techs, and often the type and at a time that are both undesirable. Used with caravans properly, the Colossus yields both short term increases in beakers and cash, and long term benefits to trade, and all the taxes that hinge upon it.

 

[cliff]

Terrapin,

The Colossus will give you new techs faster while the GL will only give you old techs that have already been discovered by the AI. But there are other ways to get the AI's techs. The simplest way is to contact them and ask them to trade with you. If they are sour you may have to give them two of your techs to get one of theirs but it should always be possible to trade unless you have fallen behind in science. In that case you can steal their techs with a diplomat or capture some of their cities.

No need to build the GL.

 

[Beers]

If your playing multiplayer you would think GL would be one of the most important techs to have. I understand that this isn't the section to talk about multiplayer but just wanted to point this out.

When you think about it the other players will not be getting those useless techs that the AI would and therefore you can choose a tech tree to race through and in the meantime pick up other peoples techs which wont be so useless.

 

[Beers]

When i called GL a tech i meant wonder my fault hehe.

 

[Terrapin]

UNCLE! UNCLE! UNCLE!

I surrender to the Collossal wisdom of the Collossus!!

Long live the SSC!! The GL will be burned by the Romans!

 

[Old n Slow]

Lately, I’ve put off my building of the GL in favor of other more urgent Wonders -- I’ve also discovered that values and uses of Wonders differs somewhat on the different levels of difficulty.

I think that oedo also notes the value of GL with multi-play. I’m only somewhat aware of that side of the game.

Maybe a good question regarding the GL is: at what level of difficulty would you consider building the GL? Playing my first time at D+1 gave a certain level of discomfort watching the ai start out & stay ahead in the techs…the thought occurs that at some level, D+n, some folks might like the insurance/catch up that the GL provides. Most of those bashing the GL play at Deity & play there well, but those still challenged by King level like the comfort that the GL provides.

For the King level players, have you ever dropped back to Warlord, built all the wonders, traded with the ai & failed to receive free techs from the GL? Maybe then you can see the points being made by

Which opens another question. You walk into the wrong episode of the Twilight Zone. You get to sit down & play Civ II for stakes that are too high…you get a free early wonder (ancients + Marco), BUT you don’t know the difficulty level that you’re playing…maybe only D+2…maybe D+8…you don’t know if it is sp or multi-play…what wonder do YOU want working for you?

 

[Beers]

Great point old n slow. I play at king level myself and am trying to play without the the GL and i feel alittle lost without it. I have a SSC with the col.. and even with that i was falling behind at first. It does seem im starting to catch up now, so i'm not ready quite yet to comment on playing without it. I really don't like to have to go back and catch up on certain branches of the techs that the GL would have filled already.

Alot of you say to trade with the A/I. I would love to do that but the A.I. is very hostile right now for some reason. So I can only count on myself to get my techs and the spies that i send out which takes some time because of the vast oceans.

And for the romans burning down the GL..... bring it on!!!

 

[Zheng He]

The benefit received by building colossus does not balance the benefit received by building GL. It also is more aesthetic in a sense of esatablishing a unified world.

 

[funxus]

Zheng He, for GL to be beneficial, you need to be behind in the science race. By managing to get an SSC and with the help of caravans, you're likely to have all the techs the AI has, and if not - you can usually trade it easily with the AI.

 

[Ace]

Letting the AI get the GL has several benefits to you. If your lucky, the purple civ will get the GL and you won't have to waste time "gifting" it techs to keep your research time low. Also, the more techs the AI has, the faster YOU move through the tech tree since you can trade for its recent discoveries, or just steal them if the AI is obstinate. It does not matter if you or the AI discover a tech first, as long as you get it. By keeping the AI current, you force it to research techs you want/need. That way, you are really researching 2 or 3 techs AT THE SAME TIME! You research one, and the AI does 2 or 3 and you wind up with a net total of 3 or 4 more techs instead of just one. This assumes you get Marco Polo and really use it.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Terrapin
UNCLE! UNCLE! UNCLE!

I surrender to the Collossal wisdom of the Collossus!!

Long live the SSC!! The GL will be burned by the Romans!

Yep. How long have you been playing, BTW?

 

[Shaka Naldur]

the eiffel tower I think
I don´t remember building it ever